Glock firing pin safety

Discussion in 'General Glocking' started by creativetownsman, Jan 26, 2020.

  1. Av8rTim

    Av8rTim

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    So something (most likely the drop force) caused the TB to move enough to cause the 10% engagement to disengage resulting in the drop failure.

    Without the gun in hand to see how other aftermarket parts were interacting it’s hard to diagnose the specifics of your “dead” trigger which is what it sounds like you are asking others to do.


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  2. GRR

    GRR

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    You’re quoting the wrong guy. Not my trigger, not my gun, not my question.
     

  3. Av8rTim

    Av8rTim

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    Sorry for the confusion. I was quoting you because I thought your post was great in answering the problem


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  4. creativetownsman

    creativetownsman

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    So, one has disengagement. What happens next? What is the effect on the firing pin and on the cruciform on the shelf? What is the result of the disengagement?

    I wouldn't be so persistent in asking questions but for my confusion over ' TB on the shelf' negating a disengagement of the sear with the lug as espoused by GRR if I understood him correctly.

    The FP lug is part of a separate mechanism and one might assume that once the disengagement happens the firing pin would go forward. Would it? Even though the TB was on the shelf? I do realize the sear is part of the TB.

    What is your view?

    I realize this is an academic discussion but some here apparently do not think so. After all, if the FP safety does its job there's not much to be concerned about. But I find it of interest to better understand the Glock firearm and its safeties.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2020
  5. Av8rTim

    Av8rTim

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    I would think that as well. The lug would go forward and if there was enough tension on the firing pin spring it would fire the chambered round assuming the TB was far enough back to disengage the FP safety plunger. At which point the slide cycles and hopefully re-engages the FP lug on the 10% of the cruciform. If no round is chambered when this happens the trigger would be to the rear like normal unless other parts were making its position or feel to be non-normal. I don’t have enough experience to wager an opinion about the dead trigger.

    I will say that I’ve appreciated this tread from a learning perspective but I just wish we are all in the same room to make the conversation clearer.


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  6. creativetownsman

    creativetownsman

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    Just assume gun is fully loaded and in battery when substantial force is applied as in a dropped gun on a hard surface.

    So you might disagree with the notion that having the cruciform on the shelf would prevent disengagement?

    My understanding- cruciform sufficiently on the shelf constitutes the drop safety and that adequate lug/sear engagement is not a safety mechanism.

    So, I'm leaning toward acceptance of GRR's contentions that disengagement can't happen if cruciform is sufficiently on the upper shelf.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2020
  7. Av8rTim

    Av8rTim

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    No. Having the cruciform on the shelf should prevent disengagement but that statement assumes the parts are in Glock spec of 2/3 engagement. If it’s less than that I would only be guessing.
     
  8. Av8rTim

    Av8rTim

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    Another question might be what is causing the engagement to be only 10%? Out of spec parts? TB too far to the rear and coming off the shelf? What the relationship between the connector and the bird’s head of the TB in this case? Lots of variables that can be affecting one another.
     
  9. GRR

    GRR

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    Before I give up. Assuming parts are not modified, damaged, or out of spec. The trigger mechanism housing shelf holds the trigger bar up. The firing pin is restrained by the trigger bar. The firing pin CANNOT move forward unless the trigger bar moves to the rear of the TMH shelf and is cammed down by the connector.
    I'll ask the OP to answer this question. What path does the firing pin take if the trigger bar is not out of the way? Hint, it cannot get out of the way unless it moves to the rear and down.
    What answer are you looking for? You ask the same question over and over. I'm done.
     
  10. creativetownsman

    creativetownsman

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    It goes nowhere if the TB is not out of the way. I think that I understand you now but that assumes adequate engagement, doesn't it?

    So, what happens if there's inadequate engagement with an extreme force applied to the firearm? Then the firing pin STAYS engaged with the sear?

    Why is there such emphasis on % engagement but for reliable operation of the firearm? However, I am more concerned about the consequences from a safety standpoint in this scenario as my gun only has ~50% engagement with no loaded magazine inserted.

    As was pointed out by 'fastbolt' this may relate to my slide/frame relationship and/or other factors. I really don't know, but if I insert a loaded magazine it's likely my engagement will decrease, yes?

    Sorry. It's not my intent to tick anyone off. It's just ignorance.

    In any event, I prefer a gun like a Kahr in the pocket over the Glock for EDC. I don't have to deal with these issues, though mag capacity is limited. Additonally, I don't concern myself with ND's with it. I haven't been in a gunfight nor is it likely, though one never knows. Extra magazine, that's the ticket.

    Good night.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2020
  11. Mike-M

    Mike-M

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    My brain hurts.
     
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  12. 1canvas

    1canvas

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    What I did before I started carrying Glocks IWB appendix was to watch the slow motion cut away animation video of a Glock fireing and cycling. That video answered all of my questions as far as operation and safety.
     
  13. creativetownsman

    creativetownsman

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    Not to drift off-topic, but Lenny Magill somewhat surprisingly advocates carrying a Glock Condition 3 AIWB. He does make some compelling reasons for doing so in a lengthy GlockStore video. If I hadn't viewed so many Active Self Protection videos on YT I might fully agree.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2020
  14. creativetownsman

    creativetownsman

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    My a** hurts sitting here at the computer having to deal with you guys! lol
     
  15. Karambit777

    Karambit777

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    So between a Glock and 1911. Which is safer to carry IWB in condition 1?
     
  16. sizziano

    sizziano

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    Ok so I haven't read the whole thread but regarding this ; in my testing experience this is so if the gun is drope or subjected to some other force the firing pin remains engaged and the firearm isn't rendered inert until the slide is racked again. Even if the ledge is working properly a strong enough force is sufficient to disengage the pin from the cruciform (also depends how the force is applied).

    My 43 and 43X will not hold on to the firing pin with Overwatch triggers installed. The block does its job but the pin is released if dropped from not even 4 feet on carpet rendering the gun inert. Not something you want in a carry piece.
     
  17. creativetownsman

    creativetownsman

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    Without hesitation, a 1911.

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  18. creativetownsman

    creativetownsman

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    Your post doesn't reflect the subject matter of the thread wholely, no doubt due to your not reading it.

    But in your second paragraph, above, concerning the 43/43x and OW triggers, there is something that I find helpful. I would respectfully ask if you can accurately state without speculating whether the firing pin just dropped out of place (lost engagement) or the cruciform came off the safety shelf, or both?

    Thanks in advance.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2020
  19. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    Well, if you're going to wildly speculate about 'extreme forces' related to impacts suffered by guns ...

    ... You might as well wonder what might happen if some drop/impact were to damage a slide so the rear rail on one or both sides, and such damage resulted in a crack (or cracks on each side), which allowed the slide to lift a bit from the frame (since the bottom of the frame rails would be on the bottom part of the hypothetically widened crack in the rear of the slide), either at the time of the impact, or after continued recoil forces added to the mess.

    Then, if the slide lifted (on one or both sides) a bit away from the frame, imagine the FP (in the lifting slide) being pulled up and away from the TB's cruciform.

    Oh yeah, and if a chambered round is in the barrel, and the FP slips free of the TB as the slide lifts and separates a bit from the frame (with the spring already partially compressed), it would really handy if the FPS feature worked to prevent the FP from hitting the primer, wouldn't it?

    Maybe that 66% engagement spec isn't such a bad thing, huh?
     
  20. creativetownsman

    creativetownsman

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    Why are you giving me such a hard time? I'm getting tired of this 'persecution' of me by you. :chatter:

    I am not disputing Glock's recommended engagement of at least 2/3. That is way beyond my pay grade and I accept it.

    I just don't understand the inter-relationship of the TB and the firing pin in a failure where there's inadequate lug/sear engagement, and what occurs.

    Can the firing pin with inadequate engagement just disconnect from the TB or must the cruciform/TB drop off the shelf as urged by GRR? Does it make a difference? Is it possible for one to fail (engagement) without the other failing as well?

    Any discussion of the FP safety is not material to my inquiry.