Glock 20 Hunting Handgun

Discussion in 'Hunting, Fishing & Camping' started by Tony Revel, Aug 15, 2007.

  1. Tony Revel

    Tony Revel

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    Got a question need help what do you all think of useing the G20 has a Handgun to hunt with Deer,Hogs? Heavy enough and if so what type of Ammo? :wavey:
     
  2. Desertscout

    Desertscout CLM Millennium Member

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    Of course it is! The 10mm exceeds the performance of the .357 magnum and is actually not too far from the .41 magnum. Choose your bullets carefully and you should be able to humanely take most big game animals in North America.

    I forgot to mention ammo. The best thing to do is to develop a load for your gun yourself but if you don't reload, DoubleTap or Buffalo Bore would probably be your best bet. I load all my own so I don't have any personal experience with either. For hogs, you'll want a good bullet that will give you a little more penetration than is required for deer. Just about any expanding bullet will work fine for deer. I use 180 gr. Hornady XTP's for deer and elk both. I've never killed a big bull with it but it works fine for cows.
     

  3. Armchair Commando

    Armchair Commando Long Range Guru

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    For Deer and Hogs it will be fine, That's about it. For bigger game like Bears,Elk,Moose,Etc. A 44 Mag or bigger should be used!
     
  4. Desertscout

    Desertscout CLM Millennium Member

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    That is one person's opinion but how many big game animals have you killed with a handgun? When the .357 magnum was first introduced, it was "the most powerful handgun on earth" and was used successfully for moose and other very large game. Sometimes, eople that don't shoot well use larger than necessary calibers to make for their own shooting inadequacy. Fact is, if the bullet is placed properly, just about any size or power of cartridge will kill nearly any anilmal on earth IF the bullet is placed properly.

    I have killed a good many animals with handguns, up to and including elk, deer, antelope and cattle with many calibers from .22 to .45-70 and I have never lost one yet.
     
  5. Armchair Commando

    Armchair Commando Long Range Guru

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    I've taken 4 deer with my 44, I have a Glock 20 and never used it to hunt. There's no point in using a service caliber when there's so many more better Handgun Calibers. Shooting a moose or elk with a 10mm. You talk about it like it's alright and humane. Most people including guides recommend 30-06 and above for game of this size. You can kill a Blue Whale with a 9mm if you wanted to go that route, It certainly won't kill it instantly, It might take a month or so but it will eventually do it. That's not the point, The point is to kill the animal as quickly as possible. Shot placement is key as you said i'm not arguing that point, But not everyone makes good shots all the time! Just cause a certain caliber will handle all the tasks, Doesn't mean it's the best and most efficient available to do the job!
     
  6. noway

    noway

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    {That is one person's opinion but how many big game animals have you killed with a handgun? When the .357 magnum was first introduced, it was "the most powerful handgun on earth" and was used successfully for moose and other very large game. Sometimes, eople that don't shoot well use larger than necessary calibers to make for their own shooting inadequacy. Fact is, if the bullet is placed properly, just about any size or power of cartridge will kill nearly any anilmal on earth IF the bullet is placed properly.

    }

    That's all and dandy if you can place the bullet in the right spot, but after sitting in a treestand freezing for 4hours, stressed out, physical fatigue, and a host of other issues which can effect your prerformance.....have mroe than enough gun/bullet that can correct any small mistakes makes sense.

    That's why we don't see hunters going out handgunning for a Elk with a 22LR pistol, but yet a 22LR "might" take a elk size game if the bullet was place perfectly and properply placed.


    I've myselfm think any magnum level handgun and with the right bullet for that game , with the proper "claiber for that game" should be fine.

    I've hunted javelina and deer with 357mags,45colt,44mag hogs with10mm and at that time these calibers where fine for the type & size of the game and once the correct bullet was used.

    just noway 2ct opinion
     
  7. CanyonMan

    CanyonMan In The Saddle

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    Boy this is a debate that is forever ongoing.
    Actually, it should not be a debate at all.

    Although there is most definately a place for the 10mm/357mag, (and I own both), it is 'NOT' on big game. (elk and up).

    Being a former guide of over 25 + years, I can assure you, that a 357mag/10mm, 'will kill' deer/elk, "BUT", it is really as ridiulous to go after such big game, as elk and larger, with these calibers, as it is to go after deer with a 17HMR ! And for someone to 'even suggest', that these two calibers, or other "lighter ones" will "take care of almost ever animal in America is also ridiculous"! Wow. :shocked:

    Also, being a rancher, I can tell you that we don't shoot catttle from 25/50/100/150/ yards away, any 22mag/10mm/357mag, to be used when there is a need to shoot a steer/cow, is used 'point blank', and BTW, usually done with a 30-30 'minimum', straight into the brain, or an '06.

    Such small calibers as the 10mm/357mag, 'do pack a punch', and certainly have their place in personal SD situations, "plus" can be used by those skilled enough to take deer/hogs, and "less." I have a good many friends in the bullet/guide/hunting/ballistics industry, that can, and have killed elk with a 357mag, but sure do not want to continue with it in the field for that purpose.

    To many things can go wrong in hunting situations, and we are faced with different angles and trajectories, distance/s, and many factors that call for using a caliber that is more suitable for such game.

    Elk are not all that hard to kill, but they do deserve something more potent than a 10mm/357mag. We can argue all day, (which i will not do, and is not my intent here), that these smaller calibers are killers of "elk, moose, and all animals on earth" ! This just is NOT so. I would never go moose hunting with a 10mm glock. I do not care how hot i loaded it. I certainly won't go back into the bush in kodiak island after Brown's with it, or a 357mag.

    I have more confidence in the 357mag, than I doa 10mm, and carry one at times, for SD, but, not enough confidence to carry it as a backup gun to defend a client in Grizz country, or take some guy elk/moose/bear hunting with it.

    44mag and up. Even at this, we are talking 'handguns' gentlemen, not rifles. Handguns are good tools, and yes they can be used in the proper hands, with the proper ammo, and proper training, and placement, and conditions, to bring down "even elephants".

    I can "assure you," that my 4 5/8" Ruger BH 45LC, with my 300gr. reloads, at 1150fps, will blow plumb through a broad side elk's shoulder, even at 100yds. I cannot give names, but a friend of mine, which is the owner of one of the largest bullet co's in America, has shot an elk behind the ear up close an personal like, with a very hot 357mag load, and HIS own cast bullet. But never done it since. it is not the gun for such a magnificent animal.

    Well, my .2 cents, is probably worth .1 But if you are hunting Elk and up, at least keep it to a 44mag, and up. Personally, I am not even a fan of the super retro rocket calibers. 44mag, the 45LC (especially), and perhaps the 454 casulll, all get the nod from me, and my experience/s. That is enough. The latter two, 'I know', takes everything that walks. You may have to throw 6 rounds in him, ha, (speaking of a charging brown bear or elephant), but, the 45LC "will cleanly take" , even with one/two shots, cape buffs, and they are very hard to kill.

    For grizz, and browns, (the latter i have not hunted personally), I will, and would not, be in their company, with anything less than a very stout load from my 45LC's and 310/320gr. hard cast of at least 20-21 BHN, and push it to the max line. This is just for a backup side arm to my rifle. ;)


    Oh well, I got a rule....Let people do what they want to. (unless they are with me) ! :supergrin:


    Good hunting boys.


    CanyonMan
     
  8. noway

    noway

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    ditto, very well put ;)
     
  9. Reyn

    Reyn Times Up

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    Tony the 10mm will work for deer and hogs. Personally id use the Hornady XTP in 200gr or one of DTs hardcast if it's legal in your area. As others have posted i wouldnt use it on Elk, blue whales,or a T-rex.
     
  10. Brass Nazi

    Brass Nazi NO BRASS FOR U!

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    :goodpost:
     
  11. Desertscout

    Desertscout CLM Millennium Member

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    That's one person's opinion. That doesn't necessarily make it right.

    BS! Either you don't have nearly the experience that you say you do or you are just VERY unknowledgeable about cartridge/bullet performance. The 10mm with a decent load leaves the .357 in the dust and is not even in the same class. That's just plain horse$#!t.

    I think you need to get out more. I said that these calibers will kill nearly anything on earth IF THE BULLET IS PROPERLY PLACED! Is there something about that that you don't understand? The Eskimos have used the .22 Hornet for Polar Bears for many years. There have been many elephants killed with 7mm Mausers. One of the Wesson boys cleanly killed a moose with .357 mag when it first came out. Larry Kelly killed several elephants with a .44 mag. handgun. Are these calibers ideal for these animals? Hell no! But in the hands of skillful, patient hunters, it is certainly feasible with the right bullet placed properly.

    Having been raised on a ranch myself and work on or visited many other ones from SE Texas to Wyoming, I can assure YOU that IF you use a .30-30 or .30-06 to kill cows at "point-blank" range, you are one of the few if not the only that does. I have never seen anyone use anything other than a .22 to INSTANTLY kill cows/steers unless they just happened to have a deer rifle in their hands and needed to kill one out in the field for some reason.

    You are faced with what you let yourself be faced with. Nobody says you have to take the shot if it's not right for you. Before you started your rant, you never bothered to ask what ranges someone might use these guns at or under what circumstances that they might be used.

    No, what they deserve is a swift, clean, humane death. It doesn't make a rat's ***** whether you do it with a blow gun or a .460 Weatherby as long as they don't suffer.

    :upeyes:

    That's because you are obviously not a handgun hunter. Again, if you are close enough and you put the bullet in the right place...

    This was never an issue. For not wanting to argue, why would even bring up anything so dumb?

    [/QUOTE]I have more confidence in the 357mag, than I doa 10mm, [/QUOTE]
    That's fine. A guy should have confidence in what he carries but in this case, it's quite unjustified since the 10mm is considerably more powerful than most .357's.

    BINGO!! THAT was my point from the beginning.

    What, exactly, makes ANY cartridge "worthy" of this magnificence other than it's ability to provide a clean kill? Exactly how dead does something have to be to have died magnificently?

    For most folks, this is probably sound advice.

    And you call putting 6 shots into an animal taking it cleanly?
    :upeyes:

    This is a whole 'nother discussion and has less than nothing to do with the original topic which was deer and pigs.
     
  12. CanyonMan

    CanyonMan In The Saddle

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    Well Hoss, as i said. I got a rule or two... I never argue with a fool, I do not need to defend myself, I know what i am, and what I do, and what I know, and I let folks do what they want to, that is foolish, as long as it ain't with me.

    You certainly qualify as one we would never allow on the ranch.

    I'm sure you will answer, but I'm done.

    Calm down sir, you will get a more harmonious out come.

    BTW, next time, don't twist people's words and meanings around, and take things out of context, to make your point, and satisfy your beliefs!



    Canyonman
     
  13. Desertscout

    Desertscout CLM Millennium Member

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    If you can tell me where you think this happened, maybe I can clear it up.
    I addressed each point that you brought up that I thought was not right and I can prove each of them. Now you can run your smart mouth and call me a fool if you want but I actually was trying to engage in a somewhat civil discussion. So far, you haven't addressed anything that I mentioned. All you have done is call me a fool and tell me that I wasn't welcome on your ranch. That's fine. I hadn't planned on coming there anyway. I prefer to hunt with more knowledgeable, mature, open-minded folks.

    Now then, ...hoss, If you'd like to engage in some discussion, not argument, and try to explain your side a little better, I'm game.
    Just because you're a guide, doen't mean you're a good one.
    Just because you're a guide, doesn't mean you necessarily know anything about ballistics or animals either one. You might, or you might just be parroting what you have heard down at the beer joint. Since I don't know you, I wouldn't know. But just because you call yourself a guide doesn't hold much water with me. There are good ones and bad ones just like in any other profession.
     
  14. method

    method

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    One thing that's often forgotten, or over looked, is that the original .357 Magnum was loaded to 47,000 c.u.p, a fair bit hotter than the 35,000 it's loaded to today. This, combined with the 8 3/4" barrel that Douglas Wesson used, gave 1515 fps with a 158 grain bullet. I suppose a hand loader could duplicate these numbers from an M27, but today's commercial loads can't be compared to the originals.
     
  15. Desertscout

    Desertscout CLM Millennium Member

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    Yes sir, that's true. But even so, if one were to figure the striking force (not taking bullet performance into account)of the "old" .357 using the Taylor formula, it comes out to 12.2. A good DT or handloaded 10mm will come out to 13.7 with a 5" barrel. That's still a pretty significant difference. A 6" 10mm is a little more yet and beats the snot out of the average .357 magnum even out of a 8" barrel. A hot-loaded 180 or 200 grain .357 can come close but I still don't think it can quite equal the 10mm. They are both great rounds but I think the .357 gets a little more credit than it really deserves due partly to those old figures and stories and Hollywood.
     
  16. noway

    noway

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    {A good DT or handloaded 10mm will come out to 13.7 with a 5" barrel.}


    TKO formula has no bearing on today's rounds and surely not for any handguns.


    {A hot-loaded 180 or 200 grain .357 can come close but I still don't think it can quite equal the 10mm. }


    Where the 357magnum shine is due to it proven track record

    the guns built around it for hunting

    higher SD than any thing a 10mm can do in the same weights

    Loading data that comes to and over 1000fpe ( afely if I may add and well published )

    a wider array of bullets 110 - 220 grains and alot of weights in between.

    alot more 357magnum load data than what the 10mm has, and if you throw in the 38spc and 38spc+P the load data get downright overwhelming ;)

    etc..


    I wouldn't rule out a 357mag nor a 10mm, both have their limits and it's not gear'd for every creature on planet earth and they serve their purpose good when used right and for the right thing.


    fwiw: I own guns in both caliber. I perfer the 10mm for carry or SD and the 357mag for plinking, target shooting and for hunting before the 10mm.

    I've hunted with both in the past and will continue hunting in the future with both, right along with my shotguns, rifles, 44mag, 45colt handguns. ;)
     
  17. Desertscout

    Desertscout CLM Millennium Member

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    This discussion has gotten way off track. To the OP, yes, the 10mm is fine for deer and hogs.
    To everyone else, I have .44's and .357's and a 10mm and I hunt different things with all of them but I have grown fond of the 10mm for nearly 100% of my woods carry. I got my deer and my elk with it last year and with any luck, I'll do the same this year. I probably wouldn't use it for a heavy bull but I usually put in for cows and it works just fine for that.

    LOL! I have to assume that you are not familiar with the formula. It can be used and is relevant to ANY projectile, regardless of caliber, weight or speed. I can't even believe you said that :animlol: This crap is so stupidly simple to prove that some of you guys really ought to get out and actually shoot a little more and get out from behind the computer.
     
  18. Armchair Commando

    Armchair Commando Long Range Guru

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    Taylor KO Factor
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Jump to: navigation, search
    Taylor KO Factor is a commonly used mathematical approach for evaluating the stopping power of hunting cartridges. The term "KO" is an acronym for "Knock Out." The Taylor KO Factor (TKOF) is a figure of merit that allows hunters to compare bullets with respect to stopping power. The TKOF was developed by John "Pondoro" Taylor, a famous mid-20th century hunter and poacher of African big game. The factor is computed using Equation 1.

    (Equation 1)
    Where

    mBullet is the bullet mass in grains (1 pound = 7000 grains)
    vBullet is the bullet velocity in feet per second
    dBullet is the bullet diameter in inches
    Taylor first described this measure of stopping power in his classic work "African Rifles and Cartridges" (Reference 1). In this work, Taylor did not actually state Equation 1. In fact, he stated in Reference 1 that "I do not think there is any necessity to go into the methods I employed to arrive at the formula I used, suffice it to say that the final figures agree in an altogether remarkable way with the actual performance of the rifles under practical hunting conditions." However, it is obvious from the text and his presentation that he used Equation 1.

    Taylor referred to number generated by Equation 1 as the "Knock Out Value" or "Strike Energy." Common practice today is to refer to this value as the "Taylor KO factor" or simply "Taylor KO."

    In Equation 1, the denominator value of 7000 is a scaling factor. It can be viewed one of two ways:

    as converting the units of bullet mass from grains to pounds.
    giving the TKOF a convenient numerical value from 0 to ~150 for normal hunting cartridges.
    The TKOF has no physical meaning and is strictly used as a figure of merit for comparing cartridges.

    Contents [hide]
    1 Background
    1.1 History
    1.2 Example Calculation
    1.3 Alternative Approaches
    2 References
    3 Further reading
    4 See also



    [edit] Background

    [edit] History
    While pursuing his legendary hunting activities, Taylor observed that some cartridges were more effective at stopping elephants than others. He drew a clear distinction between stopping power and killing ability. Since he was always aiming for a brain shot, a properly placed shot with any of the cartridges he evaluated would kill an elephant. He was more concerned with the case where the shot missed the brain and the wounded elephant could turn and attack him. He wanted a cartridge that would "knock out" an elephant even when the bullet struck in a location that was not immediately lethal. To Taylor, a "knock out" simply meant that the elephant was sufficiently stunned by the hit that he would not immediately turn on the hunter. This would allow the hunter sufficient time for an accurate follow-up shot.

    Discussions of numerical methods for evaluating cartridge effectiveness has a long history. Many of these methods were popular in the early to mid-20th century. There has been a recent surge in interest in stopping power formulae with the advent of video games. These games use these methods to evaluate the effectiveness of the weapons chosen by the game players. Reference 2 contains a list of the formulae in use by gamers.


    [edit] Example Calculation
    Consider the case of a standard NATO 7.62 × 51 mm cartridge (also known as the .308 Winchester) . It has the following characteristics:

    diameter: 7.62 mm 0.308 inches
    mass: 9.7 grams 150 grain bullet
    velocity: 860 meters per second 2820 feet per second
    The calculation is performed as shown in Equation 2.

    (Equation 2)

    [edit] Alternative Approaches
    Using numerical methods to evaluate the effectiveness of rifle cartridges has a long history and has been subject of much debate. The most common numerical methods used to evaluate the stopping power of cartridges are:

    kinetic energy
    momentum
    TKOF
    Thorniley Stopping Power
    Each figure of merit weighs the cartridge characteristics differently. Some methods are based on fundamental physics (e.g kinetic energy), while other methods are based on heuristic methods. Some of the more common figures of merit are:

    kinetic energy: favors high velocity, lower mass bullets (no diameter dependence)
    momentum: favors moderate velocity, moderate mass bullets (no diameter dependence)
    TKOF: favors large diameter, moderate velocity, heavy bullets
    Thorniley Stopping Power: favors moderate diameter, moderate velocity, moderate mass bullets

    [edit] References
    Taylor, John (1948). African Rifles and Cartridges. Highland Park, NJ: The Gun Room Press. ISBN 0-88227-013-3.
    Porter, Greg (1989). Guns, Guns, Guns: Gun Design for Any RPG. New York, NY: Blacksburg Tactical Research Center. ISBN 0-943891-04-3.

    [edit] Further reading
    Capstick, Peter (1994). A Man Called Lion. Huntington Beach, CA: Safari Press. ISBN 1-57157-011-X.
    Taylor, John (1948). Maneaters and Marauders. New York, NY: A.S. Barnes and Co. ISBN 1-57157-311-9.

    [edit] See also
    Stopping power
    Taylor Knock-Out Factor Calculator
    Thorniley Stopping Power Calculator
    Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taylor_KO_Factor"
    Category: Ballistics
     
  19. Desertscout

    Desertscout CLM Millennium Member

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    What you have posted is accurate and is centered around rifles because because John Taylor was not a handgun guy. That doesn't mean that everything mentioned above cannot be used with any projectile. In your search to prove me wrong, do some more searches and see how many other people also use the same formula for handguns and even shotgun slugs. This is so elementary I can't believe that an adult can't understand how it works.
    Go down to the bottom of the page that you referenced and click on the "Taylor Knock-Out Factor Calculator" and enter some handgun data. I suppose if it was totally irrelevant that it wouldn't calculate it but it does and it gives the correct answer.

    While agree that SD is important, you stated that the .357 had:
    [[ higher SD than any thing a 10mm can do in the same weights]]
    That's kind of a ridiculous statement since there are not a whole lot of .357's that are the same weight as most 10mm's. Yes, there are a couple of self-defense loads in the 10mm that are lightweight enough to compare to the .357 but we're discussing defense here. The subject was hunting and I don't think many folks are going to be using 135 gr. bullets in a 10mm for hogs. Likewise, there is only 1 (one) bullet in .357 that is the same weight as the most common 10mm bullet and is not commonly attainable on the market and is mostly handloaded.

    I took all of this into account when I said:
    [[ A hot-loaded 180 or 200 grain .357 can come close but I still don't think it can quite equal the 10mm.]] and I stand by that. Yes, I realize that penetration will be better with a higher SD bullet but that doesn't necessarily mean that it hits as hard which is what I stated from the beginning. I don't believe that I ever stated that the .357 wasn't adequate for hunting. In fact I stated a couple of facts that would prove otherwise. I only stated that the 10mm was as good or better and did, in fact have more energy.

    I realize that if you look long enough on the net that you find anything you want to suport any theory that you might subscribe to but here's another reference that may interest you:
    http://www.dave-cushman.net/shot/tkochart.html
     
  20. noway

    noway

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    {That's kind of a ridiculous statement since there are not a whole lot of .357's that are the same weight as most 10mm's. Yes, there are a couple of self-defense loads in the 10mm that are lightweight enough to compare to the .357 but we're discussing defense here. }

    }

    Oh really ?


    357magnum 110 10mm/40sw = nothing close
    357magnum 125 10mm/40sw = 135
    357magnum 140-145 10mm/40sw = 135-150
    357magnum 150 10mm/40sw = 150
    357magnum 155 10mm/40sw = 155
    357magnum 158 10mm/40sw = 155
    357magnum 175 10mm/40sw = 170-175
    357magnum 180 10mm/40sw = 180
    and so on

    in all of the above, the 357magnum with similiar weights have a greater SD (period). This argument can't be disputed.


    { The subject was hunting and I don't think many folks are going to be using 135 gr. bullets in a 10mm for hogs. Likewise, there is only 1 (one) bullet in .357 that is the same weight as the most common 10mm bullet and is not commonly attainable on the market and is mostly handloaded.
    }

    care to proof that? You have people in the 10mm crowd that jumpin with joy on what they think the DT-ammo 135grain bullet is, you have DrCourtney and BP theory , you have people shooting animals with their 135grain bulets .

    As far as commercial if your making reference I know of 4 top ammo mfg that have a jacket 180grain 357magnum for hunting and this not counting BuffaloBore, Doubletap or Corbon.

    Next I know of 2 mfg that have jacket bullets for hunting in 357mag at 180grain and then a few more that produce lead hardcast at 180grain and then custom loaders that have over 180grain hardcast bullets.

    ( on to next argument )


    {Yes, I realize that penetration will be better with a higher SD bullet but that doesn't necessarily mean that it hits as hard which is what I stated from the beginning.}

    So how do you measure hit harder? Does a dead deer say "man that hit harder"? or do you measure it ? Have you exactly hunted with a 10mm or 357 as far as that goes? Do you know of anybody that has hunt exclusively with the both? and have their field notes and reports ?

    keep the followin in mind before you answer;


    Alot of people have weights in 180grain for both caliber jacketed or cast, and with the higher SD of the 357magnum ....hence the greater potential of penetration no need for a heavy bullet which is what the 10mm needs to get the same penetration of the 357mag 180grain bullet.


    Next after you get past the above example ( the 180grain bullet in the 357magnum ), you have quite a few casting for 200plus weights in the .358 diameter that will leave a common 200-220grain jacket/cast .401 diameter projectile, in the dark ages when it comes to performance.

    Let me guess, you're going to cry, " But now your throwing in casted bullets" ;)

    Will guess what 357magnum is a reloader bullets for hunting. Been that way for decades . And it's more so than any thing the 10mm has when compared to the 10mm crowd. Then remember more gun platforms built around hunting actually exist for a 357 vrs 10.


    So bottom line to answer your ridiculous comment that you state in that beautifull response, the 357mag doesn't need the same weights as the 10mm to achieve the same penetration and performance . A longer smaller bullet of the same weight as a shorter bigger bullet, get's the same thing done just as effective.


    Yes I see my statment was ridiculous :upeyes:


    Now for the TKO;

    { That doesn't mean that everything mentioned above cannot be used with any projectile. In your search to prove me wrong, do some more searches and see how many other people also use the same formula for handguns and even shotgun slugs. This is so elementary I can't believe that an adult can't understand how it works }


    then I guess we other adults can't seem to grasp the concept of way the TKO is not reliable factor for handgunners and comparing them to a rifle or bigbore and then for KO a elephant. Nere's an example why? :Noway roll eyes, big time:

    a 150grain whincester ballistictip off of their website ( my favorite WT killer load btw, when I get the chance to hunt with CF rifles ;) ), it produces over 2600fpe of energy.

    Using the failed TKO formula of cal x weight x velocity /7000,
    the 308win scores about a 18 on my sheet.

    A 250grain castbullet from 44spc traveling around 1100fps , scores about a 18.2 on the TKO. This load makes about 799fpe of energy compare to the over 2K fpe of the smaller 308winny round ;)

    Next , a 170 FP 30-30 (the caliber Canyon man mention as far as rancher goes ;) and that you see on a lot of gun rack in homes, rancher hands and on their back on the horse ;) ) Typical 30-30 I've used launched these around 2000 fps , so on a TKO scale that nets us a 14.5 give or take.


    All 3 can cleanly take a game animal (if we are talking hog or deer ), 1st 2 have similiar TKO value, the last one is less. One would better than the other on a WT deer ? at 20 or 100yards ? What one do you think most people have used with in the last decade on a typical WT-deer from a treestand at the avg killing distance of a deer , which btw is not over 100yards? Which one do you think has caused more deer to give up the ghost? Is the higher TKO the better?



    TKO is a formula comprised for BIGBORE rifles , mainly big guns for African Plains animals. It was not a formula for handguns to rifle comparisons. TKO formula could just as easily been a construde formula created by Noway called the NKO formula ;)



    I'm not trying to stir you into any thing, but don't rule out the 357magnum. It's a proven caliber for handgunning , just like the examples give by canyon man with the 44mag and 45colt. The 10mm doesn't have this credit to it's name, but that doesn't make it a for better or worst off round.

    AFAIW, the TKO is a formula that shouldn't be mention in the same sentence with that of a handgun .

    Bottom line, shoot what you like, know the limits of each and then your limits as human and hunter, bring enough gun, bring enough bullet to the game to gitt'er done right ;)

    Noway out, making my last minute trips for hunting deer this weekend with stick and string?