[KiloBravo]

Okay, long story short is that most people at my work know I like guns and know I frequent the range on the weekends. That is because I have taken a few to teach how to shoot. It is a very small company by today's standards, so most everybody talks to everybody else about what they did over the weekend. I love to share my passion with anybody who is willing to take an interest.

Today, I got to talking to this guy who is very friendly, and does not get worked up too easily. We always get along great. However, he is extremely anti-gun and does not feel they are necessary in today's world. Imagine that. :upeyes:

Anyway, he felt the need to keep pushing a conversation today about guns, even after I had tried to avoid it several times. I only did so because I know his feelings about it and know I will not ever be able to change his mind anyway. I also do not like to debate such issues at work. I don't mind educating those who genuinely want to learn, but I know this particular person only brings it up to try and get me stirred up. Luckily, I don't rattle easily either.

The following is just a piece of the IM we shared after he finally got me to "debate" with him about firearms:

Guy: 21 century, not the 17th or 18th

Me: correct, this is the 21st century

Guy: right and the need for guns has also changed

Me: I disagree, but I realize how you feel about the subject, and I respect it...so I will just leave it at that

Guy: point 1...would there be less killing if there were no guns?

Guy: still be people dying because people kill people, that I understand

Me: very true...and very sadly, there are WAY more corrupt and messed up ppl out there today than there was int he 17th and 18th century, so the need of protection and self-preservation is even more vital...Guns are just a tool to accomplish that, and I agree that they are not the only option, but a viable one

Me: I have learned a ton from what we have talked about, and I appreciate everything you have to say, even if we don't agree on some things

Then, he went silent and had nothing else to say about the matter. There was more said before and after, but I was very civil with him and even acknowledged the fact that I realize different people will have very different views. That way, he knows where I stand, and I do not come off as some crazy, gun toting, cowboy wannabe *******. (Before anybody says anything, I AM about the biggest ******* you will ever meet.) :supergrin:

All in all, I thought it was a very good experience for him. :rofl:

 

[wild cat mccane]

Where are you getting there are "way" more messed up people now a days?

Based solely on there being more people in this world = more messed up people
or...

I disagree with your logic. I think there is more safety in todays world then there ever has been. The emotion of lack of security hasn't caught up.

 

[hogship]

Where are you getting there are "way" more messed up people now a days?

Based solely on there being more people in this world = more messed up people
or...

I disagree with your logic. I think there is more safety in todays world then there ever has been. The emotion of lack of security hasn't caught up.

Whatever the logic.....there is, was, and have always been messed up people in high places.......and that's what our founding fathers worried about the most.

Few people would argue the point that you have the right to defend yourself against the BG who attempts to mug you.......but, that's not the most important reason we have RKBA.

hog

 

[unit1069]

If your co-worker is so keen on advances in human rights maybe you can reason with him that just as equal rights for women and minorities has advanced, so has equality in self-defense.

There's no weapon in history I can think of that levels the playing field for defenders against aggressors as the modern firearm. The biggest, burliest biker dude has no realistic physical advantage when faced with an armed 95-pound woman who is willing to use her weapon to defend herself.

If your co-worker is so confident that progress has been achieved how can he deny the advancement in self-defense the modern firearm has wrought? Of course, he might surprise you and everyone else by advocating that times were better when women could only defend themselves against a stronger adversary by having an equally strong man present to protect her.

 

[all9justified]

Just something I was once told. In some cases people disagree to learn and maybe want answers to why they should do something involving certain things. Simply to find other views that makes up ones mind for them. In some cases maybe they thought they were wrong for wanting to do something, and needed someone to tell them it was ok to do it.

 

[sonick808]

most debates i oblige eventually descend into ad hom attacks on me when the facts run counter to whatever it is that drives a rabid anti

 

[ftlupton]

If you think the world is safer now you need to get out more. Not only are there more people but way more violence in the world as we know it. Try walking the streets of Juarez at night like we used to, try walking the streets of most large eastern cities at night. Suicide! Drugs, violent videos, and more gangs than ever and the result is violence. We ain't seen nothing yet, as the economy gets much worse it will get more dangerous everywhere. One stat to check, the prison populations. Just my 2 cents worth.

 

[glock2740]

Well, I guess if he needs to call 911, he can tell them to not only send a cop, but send an ambulance for him too. :dunno:Idiots wil usually remain idiots.

 

[wild cat mccane]

More violent today?

Since after WW2? Since WW1? Since?

I would like your statistics and sources please. Notice I haven't said my position. I bet you have already guessed it. But I still would like your sources.

 

[Alchemy]

More violent today?

Since after WW2? Since WW1? Since?

I would like your statistics and sources please. Notice I haven't said my position. I bet you have already guessed it. But I still would like your sources.

I look at this as being a subjective opinion by the OP. To ask someone
for verfiable sources would only create criticism about the validity of
their sources. This would turn into a situation much like a dog chasing
his tail.

I believe that we now live in a much more violent society than we had
in the past. If you want my sources, there my personal opinion, and I
have no intention to get into a trivial arguement of the generalities
involved.

If you have an opinion on the matter, please just say it and get on
with the conversation in a constructive manner. Don't jump on the
OP's opinion with the intent argue. Which IMHO you wanted to do in
the first place.

 

[wild cat mccane]

Well, see you just restated the opinion of the whole thread.

More violent than the past? did you live in the past? unless you bring data, its just opinion.

I don't believe pro gun people need to always be steeped in fear of a 'more violent than ever' argument.

I am here to argue that point. He started a thread. I am sorry if I was suppose to chime in with complete enthusiasm with this pointless thread.

 

[Berto]

Well, see you just restated the opinion of the whole thread.

More violent than the past? did you live in the past? unless you bring data, its just opinion.

I don't believe pro gun people need to always be steeped in fear of a 'more violent than ever' argument.

I am here to argue that point. He started a thread. I am sorry if I was suppose to chime in with complete enthusiasm with this pointless thread.

Someone's a little testie today.

 

[scatman]

How can anyone imagine a country (even hypathetically) without firearms? I mean come on...that would be like trying to imagine a world without liberals. It's just not gonna happen, ever, ever, ever.

That is primarily why I carry, If the BG got em, so should I.

 

[KiloBravo]

How can anyone imagine a country (even hypathetically) without firearms? I mean come on...that would be like trying to imagine a world without liberals. It's just not gonna happen, ever, ever, ever.

That is primarily why I carry, If the BG got em, so should I.

Amen to that!

 

[KiloBravo]

Well, see you just restated the opinion of the whole thread.

More violent than the past? did you live in the past? unless you bring data, its just opinion.

I don't believe pro gun people need to always be steeped in fear of a 'more violent than ever' argument.

I am here to argue that point. He started a thread. I am sorry if I was suppose to chime in with complete enthusiasm with this pointless thread.

I have no official statistics or personal knowledge of EXACTLY how violent things were 100 years ago. I was simply just expressing the fact that there are many more violent crimes today in general, than existed that long ago. Turn on the local news or read a newspaper once in a while. You will begin to see what I was speaking about.

Also...if my thread is so pointless, why take the time to respond to it on more than one occasion? :dunno: Move on to more important things you obviously need to be doing, like playing World or Warcraft or cleaning your airsoft guns.

 

[KiloBravo]

I look at this as being a subjective opinion by the OP. To ask someone
for verfiable sources would only create criticism about the validity of
their sources. This would turn into a situation much like a dog chasing
his tail.

I believe that we now live in a much more violent society than we had
in the past. If you want my sources, there my personal opinion, and I
have no intention to get into a trivial arguement of the generalities
involved.

If you have an opinion on the matter, please just say it and get on
with the conversation in a constructive manner. Don't jump on the
OP's opinion with the intent argue. Which IMHO you wanted to do in
the first place.

This is exactly what I was trying to get across to the gentleman I was speaking with at work. Thank you. I have no need to get into internet arguements with anybody, or feel the need to justify anything to the person who is obviously just a troll and will go away from this site soon enough if he keeps up with what he is doing around here.

 

[DEADEYEGUY]

Anti gun people IMHO are never really able to come up with a sound, logical, arguement against guns. They make a gun out to be something evil in and of itself. The good news is that a couple of my friends were anti's until they needed a gun and I was around. I am retired but work part time security at a local store. We had two people fighting (literally) over a parking spot! Afterwords a woman came up and asked me what had happened. I told her and her response was "that's what you get when you have a society that let's people carry guns".
Now their were no guns involved in this incident. No threats of a weapon. I really don't know where that came from. So two people who act crazy over a parking space were driven crazy by a gun owning society???
I don't even see the connection. Sometimes I can talk someone into going to the range with me. They've always ended up having a ball. People kill people. It goes all the way back to sticks and rocks. Some folks just don't get it.

 

[furioso2112]

It's impossible to "get rid of all the guns" - they are far too easy to manufacture. Restricted puts those with guns in power.
If society used to be more violent (by whatever measure anyone wants to use), it is now less violent becuase we have greater individual access to guns.
If society is now more violent (again, by whatever measure), guns are a reasonable response for many.
The only way 'no guns' even comes close to making sense is if there are truly NO guns, and no possibility of making them

 

[arclight610]

Okay, long story short is that most people at my work know I like guns and know I frequent the range on the weekends. That is because I have taken a few to teach how to shoot. It is a very small company by today's standards, so most everybody talks to everybody else about what they did over the weekend. I love to share my passion with anybody who is willing to take an interest.

Today, I got to talking to this guy who is very friendly, and does not get worked up too easily. We always get along great. However, he is extremely anti-gun and does not feel they are necessary in today's world. Imagine that. :upeyes:

Anyway, he felt the need to keep pushing a conversation today about guns, even after I had tried to avoid it several times. I only did so because I know his feelings about it and know I will not ever be able to change his mind anyway. I also do not like to debate such issues at work. I don't mind educating those who genuinely want to learn, but I know this particular person only brings it up to try and get me stirred up. Luckily, I don't rattle easily either.

The following is just a piece of the IM we shared after he finally got me to "debate" with him about firearms:

Guy: 21 century, not the 17th or 18th

Me: correct, this is the 21st century

Guy: right and the need for guns has also changed

Me: I disagree, but I realize how you feel about the subject, and I respect it...so I will just leave it at that

This is what you should have put:

Me: I agree. We no longer really need guns to defend ourselves against Native Americans, or things of that nature. Without guns though, how would I be able to rob a bank efficiently? Or how about a 7-11? No one is going to take me seriously if I'm waving around pepper spray or a knife.

Guy: ...

Me: Plus, on the 4th of July I like shooting my automatic UZI into the air alot better than lighting off fireworks.

Guy: How did you get an automatic UZI?

Me: Duh, the gun show loophole of course!

Guy: ...

Guy: point 1...would there be less killing if there were no guns?

Guy: still be people dying because people kill people, that I understand

Me: very true...and very sadly, there are WAY more corrupt and messed up ppl out there today than there was int he 17th and 18th century, so the need of protection and self-preservation is even more vital...Guns are just a tool to accomplish that, and I agree that they are not the only option, but a viable one

Me: I have learned a ton from what we have talked about, and I appreciate everything you have to say, even if we don't agree on some things

Then, he went silent and had nothing else to say about the matter. There was more said before and after, but I was very civil with him and even acknowledged the fact that I realize different people will have very different views. That way, he knows where I stand, and I do not come off as some crazy, gun toting, cowboy wannabe *******. (Before anybody says anything, I AM about the biggest ******* you will ever meet.) :supergrin:

All in all, I thought it was a very good experience for him. :rofl:

It would have been funnier to push his buttons

 

[CobraCommander]

As far as relative safety goes, violent crime today is a fraction of what it was in the 1970-90s (the most violent period in America's history). However, the violent crime rate of the early 1900s was lower still (before there were any gun laws to speak of).

As far as the relationship between gun ownership and crime, states like UT, MT, ND, WA, OR, VT, NH, ME, IA, WY, SD, NE, WA, OR, ID etc. have very low rates of violent crime despite relatively few regulations. The relationship is not at all clear.

he is extremely anti-gun and does not feel they are necessary in today's world.

Well, nobody really needs a weapon...until he does. Unfortunately, when that may be is a bit hard to predict. You don't have to be some kind of survivalist to realize that preparedness for emergencies (defensive, financial, medical, etc.) is a decent idea (and this goes beyond weapons in my opinion.)