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FTFeed Glock 27

Discussion in 'General Glocking' started by Curvewrecker, Nov 14, 2004.

  1. Curvewrecker

    Curvewrecker

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    My new G27 has had many many Failure to feeds, but only when my Girlfriend is shooting it. I'm using G22 15rd LE mags that I bought used. Four other people have shot this gun, same mags, same ammo, without a single failure of any kind. Is this classic "limp-wristing"? Would weak mag springs create a higher chance of this if someone was "limp-wristing"? She doesn't like my new Glock at all, but would if it worked for her. any Thoughts?
     
  2. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    Does it function properly for her when she uses the factory supplied 9-round magazines? If not, it might be her ... If so, then it may be the G22 magazine springs starting to exhibit early signs of becoming weakened.

    "Limp wristing", which is a lack of shooter-supplied frame stability issue, can also sometimes be involved with other conditions ...

    Weakened magazine springs can certainly add to the potential of feeding malfunctions, when everything else is normal but the shooter's grip stability (locked wrist & firm grip) may be "borderline" in this regard.

    Also, when you add to the mix your use of magazines which were originally intended to be used in a pistol with a heavier slide and a bit slower slide velocity, you can sometimes risk adding a little more potential of this happening.

    Sure, people use G23 & G22 magazines in G27's all the time. The goal is to have more rounds, obviously, right? Well, I've watched more than one person shooting a G27 with G23 magazines experience feeding malfunctions, toward the last part of the magazine load, which appeared to be related to lessened magazine spring strength (the springs were a few years old). One of the guys said that his G27 magazines never caused him that problem (duh), but he wanted to have more rounds available so he used the larger magazines. Fine, but make sure your magazine springs are fresh enough, especially considering the faster slide velocities of the shorter pistol.

    It's one thing to use them in the larger pistol they were designed for, as the springs naturally weaken with use & age ... but it's another to use them in the little G27 with faster slide velocity. You can imagine how any weakening of the mag springs might tend to be more noticeable, sooner, in the faster cycling pistol.

    Shorter pistols with lighter slides generally have faster slide velocities than similar model/caliber pistols with larger, heaver slides. Many firearms engineers will express the opinion that you can't totally compensate for all of the increased slide velocity by just increasing the strength of the recoil spring ... beyond a certain point, anyway. Sometimes heavier magazine springs also have to be used to keep the feeding within the proper "timing".

    Something else to consider is that recoil forces travel in all directions ... or in this instance, "downward" ... as well as rearward.

    If you could see what's happening inside your magazine during recoil, you'd see that the column of stacked rounds actually "bounces" downward ever so quickly (obviously much less so when the spring is fully compressed, when the magazine is full). The magazine spring has to be strong enough to resist this compression and return the rounds upward sufficently fast enough to place the top round under the magazine lips ... and tensioned firmly enough ... for the slide's stripper rail to pick up the rear of the top round's case, and strip it from the magazine in the proper "timing" for it to be fed & chambered while the slide is being returned to battery. If the "timing" is just enough off, then a feeding malfunction can occur. (And this is just talking about the magazine lips & spring. Other issues could become involved if you throw in lower pressure ammunition, weakened recoil spring, too heavy of a recoil spring, dirty extractor, excessively dirty pistol, improper lubrication, etc.).

    Now, add a shooter that may have a slight potential for a loose grip, unlocked wrist, or allowing their wrist to "break" during recoil ...

    If this results in enough frame movement during the recoil cycle, a condition may result which effectively "robs" the recoil spring of some of its intended stored energy. The frame moves more than intended by the gun designer, instead of being held sufficiently stationary to allow the slide to move fully to the rear, traveling its designed distance at the intended speed and properly compressing the recoil spring as designed.

    If the recoil spring isn't compressed to the intended degree, and at the intended rate, then it may lack sufficient force to perform its intended task when it decompresses. This by itself can result in cycling/feeding/lock-up issues ... but then if you add in an aging magazine spring, it could be just enough to further help induce a malfunction. Maybe not in the hands of someone that has a properly firm grip & locked wrist ... until the springs have weakened further.

    Usually a weakened magazine spring will start to exhibit occasional failures to lock the slide open when the magazine is empty (follower isn't tensioned upward sufficently fast & firmly enough to engage the slide stop tab) ... and if the user ignores that symptom, then failures to feed on the last round or two may manifest next ... and then failures more toward the middle of the magazine load, as the magazine spring continues to weaken and fails to exert sufficient upward force on the rounds in the magazine body.

    I know of another pistol manufacturer that modified the followers for the magazines in one of their compact models, compared to the larger magazines in larger versions of their pistol, and the reason was that a slight modification of the follower's profile better insured the increased slide velocity of the smaller pistol wouldn't adversely affect feeding. One follower was fine for full size magazines, but they discovered a revised design, used in shorter magazines in the shorter model, kept the top rounds better positioned during the faster slide velocities produced by the shorter and lighter slides.

    I have no idea if this is what happened with your girlfriend. Maybe she was thumbing the slide. I wasn't there and I'm not in a position to know what happened.

    I just had the time and inclination to ramble on about a common issue.;)

    Just my thoughts. Don't mean nuthin' ...;a
     

  3. RMTactical

    RMTactical Battle Born CLM

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    I would bet it is limp wristing.
     
  4. Curvewrecker

    Curvewrecker

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    Thanks for the info, you've covered lots of ground and given me a place to start.

    I kept my eyes on the slide lock lever once this problem began, and she never got near it, the slide never locked that way. The problem was that the next round to be fed was "nosediving" below the feed ramp, and a simple tug on the slide let it come up and feed, which is why I was thinking weakened mag spring. This would fit well into the slide velocity issue mentioned.

    If it is mag springs, will glock repair the mags, or should I go with Wolf or other aftermarket springs? I have six LE marked G22 mags and sure would like to use them with this gun. I have no other .40 cal glock, so if I have to modify them (Follower, etc.) to work with the G27 that is no issue.

    I'll only bring factory G27 mags to the range next time, and see if her problem goes away. I call it "her problem" because like I mentioned no one else has had a single failure of any kind with this gun. She is an accomplished rifle shooter(!), but never shot a handgun before meeting me.

    WWB wally world 180 gr FMJ's are all we've shot so far. Maybe a variety of ammo might alter things a bit, too.

    Thanks for the input, if anyone else has experience with this or any thoughts on the matter keep it coming.




    :cool:
     
  5. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    The stronger 11-coil L/E G22 Magazine spring is Glock part number SP02551, although Lone Wolf Distributors lists it as their part number GLO-2551, according to their website. They're probably available elsewhere, too.

    Wolff sells extra strength magazine springs, as well.

    Magazine springs can weaken with age. I've known cops that thought they could keep the same magazine springs in their personally owned Glocks for years without worrying about changing them. I've also seen these same cops experience malfunctions that were indicative of weakened magazine springs, too.

    I like to see them replaced on some periodic basis if it's for a defensive pistol.

    If nobody else is experiencing the same problem with your G27 pistol when using the G22 L/E magazines, it might indeed be your girlfriend's grip style, and the shorter 9-round G27 magazines might supply the additional spring tension for the pistol to cycle properly when she's shooting it. You also might CAREFULLY suggest she let you help her with her grip style, too. Dangerous ground, tread lightly.;)
     
  6. Austin Charles

    Austin Charles Hi Jack!!!

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    I bet that is it;)
     
  7. Guest

    I bet limp wresting.
    I can make my G27 fail to feed by limp wresting.
    If it recurs with other shooters I would say weak mag spring or both.
     
  8. utf59

    utf59

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    I'm reviving this thread because my wife has been having a similar problem with her G27.

    In our case:

    1. The gun and all four of our magazines were purchased new, so I don't really suspect the magazine springs.

    2. Other shooters have encountered the problem, but *very* rarely.

    3. She understands the limp-wrist concept. When she focuses on a good grip, the problem lessens but doesn't go away entirely. Now since it's her carry pistol, I don't want her to have to think about her grip for a second before she fires it if she ever needs to for self-defense (I think adrenaline will give her a tighter grip then, anyway :cool:).

    4. She has fired a number of other pistols — in the same caliber and larger — and doesn't have this problem. However, I believe the combination of caliber (substantial round and velocity) and small pistol size might be at the center of the issue.​

    A friend recommended trying a heavier recoil spring. That would be inexpensive to try (compared to buying a new gun) but before I do, I was wondering if anyone here has tried heavier recoil springs on a G27. Do they help with this problem? Do they throw the timing out of balance? Are there any other issues with them?

    I appreciate any help.
     
  9. DRT

    DRT

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    I'm not a big fan of running longer mags in the shorter weapons for reasons listed above. I also would not run a +1 or +2 baseplate as it lowers spring tension and can lead to FTF with hot loads that have high slide velocity.


    In addition to mag springs, take a look a the number on the top of the magazine follower. If it's not an "8", the latest version, then that may also be an issue. You can replace the followers with #8s if the mag was originally equipped with 6s or 7s, not 5s or earlier.

    My recommendation is to use 9 round G27 mags (optionally with +0 extended base plates for your finger). Make sure they have #8 followers and fresh springs.
     
  10. utf59

    utf59

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    DRT, I appreciate your answer. In my wife's case, two of the mags have pinky extensions, and I can't remember if they're +1 or +0. In any case, the other two are straight from the factory. She gets misfeeds from all four. I did think it was the mags at first because they always seemed to happen near the end of the mag. But they were all new when we bought the gun (May, I think) and the problem has occurred on all of them.

    So I'm thinking of getting a heavier recoil spring. Have you ever tried heavier recoil springs in a Glock? I'm a little concerned with the timing since the slide velocity is pretty fast on these and the travel distance is so short.