Fort Worth Officer kills homeowner

Discussion in 'Cop Talk' started by Sgt127, Oct 12, 2019.

  1. mrdann

    mrdann

    Messages:
    765
    Likes Received:
    303
    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2005
    Location:
    WPB, FL
    Both. "Some people" would try to stop a fleeing suspect, let's say a shoplifter for example, by stepping in front of the car and ordering them to stop, maybe or maybe not at gun point. If the subject didn't stop, the officer would shoot, justifying the use of force with the logic, "I was in fear for my life.....BECAUSE HE WAS TRYING TO RUN ME OVER."

    On the surface, it looks and sounds legit, ie the suspect WAS driving a deadly weapon directly AT the officer, so it was reasonable for the officer to fear imminent death or great bodily harm....BUT the officer CAUSED the danger by positioning himself in front of the car.

    Our GOs now explicitly prohibit placing your body or any part thereof in the path of a moving vehicle with the intention of "stopping" it, AND we are explicitly prohibited from shooting at or into a vehicle, when the vehicle IS the only weapon and it would be "more prudent" to simply get out of the way.
     
    badge315 and Dragoon44 like this.
  2. mrdann

    mrdann

    Messages:
    765
    Likes Received:
    303
    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2005
    Location:
    WPB, FL

  3. mrdann

    mrdann

    Messages:
    765
    Likes Received:
    303
    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2005
    Location:
    WPB, FL
    Something like the video above
     
  4. Mayhem like Me

    Mayhem like Me Semper Paratus

    Messages:
    26,057
    Likes Received:
    18,317
    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2001
    Location:
    outer rim
    The suspect caused the issue trying to get away from a lawful police action by assaulting the officer with their vehicle . Let’s not try to change what actually happened


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
    Bruce M and Newcop761 like this.
  5. ray9898

    ray9898

    Messages:
    16,657
    Likes Received:
    6,265
    Joined:
    May 29, 2001
    Location:
    Georgia
    I simply cannot believe so many departments have a standard practice that a call of an open residential interior door in a subdivision where the outer door is still closed, no signs of forced entry and no other extenuating factors is exigent enough for a building search.
     
    merlynusn, badge315, Bus007 and 2 others like this.
  6. Dragoon44

    Dragoon44 Unfair Facist Lifetime Member

    Messages:
    21,677
    Likes Received:
    10,396
    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2005
    You and me both, and the portion of Fort Worth policy that was posted appeared to clearly apply to commercial buildings/ Alarms and burglaries and not residences specifically.
     
    cbetts1 likes this.
  7. ReaPer105

    ReaPer105

    Messages:
    3,692
    Likes Received:
    6,673
    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2017
    I saw the video still that showed a gun in her hand. Fake or real, can't tell. So when he hollered at her, she may have turned toward him holding it and he fired. He has some defense here, I just don't think it will be enough to get him off.
     
    Newcop761, Sharkey and Dragoon44 like this.
  8. Mayhem like Me

    Mayhem like Me Semper Paratus

    Messages:
    26,057
    Likes Received:
    18,317
    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2001
    Location:
    outer rim
    what he did was not murder , would be a manslaughter , no malice or pre planning
     
    4949shooter and Dragoon44 like this.
  9. Dragoon44

    Dragoon44 Unfair Facist Lifetime Member

    Messages:
    21,677
    Likes Received:
    10,396
    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2005
    While I agree, even when I was on the job it was standard practice for a prosecutor to file the highest possible charge so when it was plea bargained down they had the best chance of ending up with an applicable charge.

    Don't know if that is the case here, but it would seem possible.
     
    Bus007 and Mayhem like Me like this.
  10. walkinguf61

    walkinguf61

    Messages:
    5,979
    Likes Received:
    5,217
    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2013
    Under certain circumstances, absolutely.

    For an alarm job, for example. Officers here have gotten in trouble for not making sure that the ground level was secured. We even have a radio code for it.

    Remember , we don’t know all of what was observed. They were playing a video game. We don’t know what he heard.

    Frankly, I don’t even know for sure that he didn’t approach the front door with all the misinformation out there. Or if he was to cover the back whole the other officer was to initiate contact. We haven’t heard anything from both officers. Wrong or Right, we have seen many departments use this tactic. It appears to he in their procedures although not explicitly said in the section posted by another on this forum.
     
  11. walkinguf61

    walkinguf61

    Messages:
    5,979
    Likes Received:
    5,217
    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2013
    yes, that procedure is common sense but doesn’t go toward justification in a criminal court. How many shootings at suspects using the car as a weapon in attempt to get away and the shooting is legally deemed justified.

    And don’t forget what happened here.


    View: https://youtu.be/7lG1NDhBTsQ


    If she had shot the driver and she lived, I think it would be ruled justified.
     
  12. Dragoon44

    Dragoon44 Unfair Facist Lifetime Member

    Messages:
    21,677
    Likes Received:
    10,396
    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2005
    Granted my academy days were a long time ago, but I was taught,

    A.) bullets won't stop a vehicle.
    B.) if you injure or kill the driver of a moving vehicle you have just created a unguided multi ton Hazzard.

    Ourtraining was with few exceptions it was not a good Idea to shoot at moving vehicles. And most dept. Policies reflected that.
     
    golls17 likes this.
  13. walkinguf61

    walkinguf61

    Messages:
    5,979
    Likes Received:
    5,217
    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2013
    That is true. My department had that policy for over 40 years of not shooting at a moving vehicle until this changed it.

    https://nypost.com/2017/10/31/8-killed-truck-pedestrians-downtown-nyc-terror-attack/

    If the officers had shot at the driver before he stopped the truck, they would have been in violation of department procedures but legally justified
     
  14. Dragoon44

    Dragoon44 Unfair Facist Lifetime Member

    Messages:
    21,677
    Likes Received:
    10,396
    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2005
    I can understand using that tactic on a closed commercial property. When a business is supposed to be closed there is little reason to believe it is currently occupied by anyone that has the right to be there.

    That however is not the case with a residence, there was no reason (that we know of)to believe the home was unoccupied, certainly not simply on the basis that a door was open and the lights were on.

    As far as the video goes, I would quite skeptical about the idea that the dept. Released a video after editing out the part showing officers trying the front door or knocking.
     
  15. Dragoon44

    Dragoon44 Unfair Facist Lifetime Member

    Messages:
    21,677
    Likes Received:
    10,396
    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2005
    And it makes sense to see that incident being an exception. A driver using their vehicle as a weapon in attacking people by deliberately driving into a crowd is considerably different from an officer stepping into the path of a moving vehicle.

    The crowd did not place itself into the path of a moving vehicle, the driver of the vehicle targeted the crowd.
     
  16. Triple Taps

    Triple Taps Best Friends

    Messages:
    1,168
    Likes Received:
    724
    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2010
    No, I agree, but if the vehicle is coming straight for me, and I can't get out of the way, it will stop that person attempting to kill me. :flag:

    The Policy maker of "don't shoot at a moving vehicle", is not the person whose anatomy is about to be run over by the crazy murderer or methed up driver.
    When faced with a policy decision or saving my life, guess which decision I would make.

    Now, if the driver is not trying to run over me or anyone else, I will use other methods to stop the vehicle. I will follow policy, no problem.

    Again, if the crazy is attempting to run over me they will look like the Bonnie and Clyde car picture. Possibly like their remains also, too gruesome to post. Everyone probably recognizes this car, but it was Bonnie and Clyde's car. The holes were provided courtesy of LAW ENFORCEMENT.
    death-car.jpg
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2019
    Dragoon44 likes this.
  17. walkinguf61

    walkinguf61

    Messages:
    5,979
    Likes Received:
    5,217
    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2013
    The NYPD policy has been violated many times and justified.

    I know of a cop who’s leg was run over and crushed. Officers fired rounds into the car when the perp looked back and put the car in reverse. It caused the driver to veer off and did not hit the officer who was on the ground.
     
    Bruce M likes this.
  18. Dragoon44

    Dragoon44 Unfair Facist Lifetime Member

    Messages:
    21,677
    Likes Received:
    10,396
    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2005
    The first one is about officers involved not being able to be sued in a CIVIL LAWSUIT because of qualified immunity. And the judge specifically stated his ruling was based on the fact that the officers actions met the criteria of the Standard practice of, KNOCK AND TALK.

    The officers were investigating a CONFIRMED crime, they thought (wrongly) That the individual (suspect) was in the apt.

    They KNOCKED. They responded to the person they thought was their suspect opening the door gun in hand and claim that he pointed it at them.

    I see no relation between this and the situation, Dean had no confirmation that a crime was taking, or had taken place. He did not knock or I anyway announce his presence or authority. He Simply decided to prowl around in the dark enter an enclosed back yard and shoot the homeowner who responded to his unwarranted intrusion.

    The other two links deal with 1 case, and if you had actually researched the incident you would have found that the officers were indicted for 3 felonies and plead guilty to misdemeanor charges and we're sentenced to 100 hours of community service


    https://www.wsls.com/news/virginia/...icers-indicted-after-man-shot-in-his-own-home

    Both plead guilty to reduced charges


    https://www.newsadvance.com/news/lo...cle_090f82d8-4f0c-11e9-abc4-07208eb4f40d.html
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2019
  19. Dog Soldier

    Dog Soldier NRA Benefactor

    Messages:
    5,296
    Likes Received:
    7,726
    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2017
    Location:
    Wyoming
    The Police Chief dispensed with this officer. Pronto. What does that say?