For those of you who have young-ish sons and daughters, have you noticed......

Discussion in 'The Okie Corral' started by hogship, Sep 19, 2019.

  1. Dave514

    Dave514

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    And while I'm complaining, the advanced mental concepts needed to try and teach them common core math, like an adult might do in their head, in place of traditional adding techniques has been a giant waste of time.

    When you make a kid add 15 + 17 like this....

    math-plds.022.jpg
     
  2. Dave514

    Dave514

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    If you can't instinctively spit out 36 when someone says 'What's 6 times 6?' then I think you are at a time disadvantage when it comes to doing more complex math. It also leaves one more step for calculation errors.
     

  3. slamdunc

    slamdunc JAFO

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    I don’t see it as “advanced mental concepts” it’s like an abstract thought process—more art, less actual mathematics. Mathematical principles have always been a constant and the rules were simple. Teachers of common core likely had to use a lot of crayons in life.
     
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  4. G26-Has-my-6

    G26-Has-my-6

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    maybe for most, but my wife made our daughter memorize the multiplication table (and explained WHY she should do that) when she was 6. it helped her a lot as she progressed through school.
     
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  5. Ramjet38

    Ramjet38 Mentally Frozen

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    That was taught in 5th grade, and you had to stand in front of the class and the teacher would give instructions on where to start.
     
  6. Dave514

    Dave514

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    Agreed in that...It's an advanced concept for a child who's mind hasn't developed yet. The same as catching a ball is an advanced concept for a 3 year old. The capacity to do things that are abstract seems to come later than common core math expects.
     
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  7. BradD

    BradD

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    We see this in engineering school also. The body of knowledge is broader than it was 30-40 years ago, and the number of credit-hours has decreased. When I was in college from 89-94, we had 136 credit-hours. Now, 128 is more typical. Back then, we just used a calculator and had some tables and graphs for design aids. Now, we have to dedicate time to using and developing computerized tools. It's tough to provide adequate coverage of the fundamentals.

    I think similar things are happening to kids.
     
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  8. DonD

    DonD

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    This isn't new, way back in 1982 we'd moved to SOCAL on Navy orders, son was in 3rd grade and we learned they weren't teaching the times tables. Wife spoke with the teacher who said it wasn't an issue, they had calculators.

    Duh, you need to know the tables. If your $8 calculator is dying or you mistype in your smart phone, you have to know general magnitudes or you'll be a dummy. Don
     
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  9. sarge83

    sarge83

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    Yes I have noticed that. When I was in 4th grade in the olden days the teacher said we are going to learn our times tables, one set each week, so 1X1-12, next week 2X1-12, etc... and she handed out those little green cards that had them printed for us to memorize. Every Friday each student would go to her desk and recite 1-12X the number of the week and she would note how many you missed next to your name.

    When everyone had completed saying them to her she would then walk to the door and summon another teacher and call the names of those who had missed one in their recitation to the front. For each one on the table you missed you got a lick with a paddle. After week 3 the numbers of those paddled dropped dramatically as you were motivated to not get hammered by this teacher who was the girls basketball coach and rather athletic in build. We had one poor devil who was too stubborn or stupid to learn them. He got lit up each week. Thankfully I made it 1-12 without getting a single lick with the paddle.
     
  10. mj9mm

    mj9mm

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    my oldest is 42(and a hs teacher). youngest 30. all of my kids complain about the schools and the systems used. i suppose they learned that from the experience they had as children. my parents had a few complaints about teaching methods, seems there is a trend developing. (by the way, anyone notice the spelling and grammar issues on GT?) my middle child has Home Schooled her children unto and into high school level, mostly to keep the indoctrination to a minimum. it's worked, their positive ideas of America are stronger than the others in the greater family. one thing that seems odd though, over half of my 21 grandchildren are labeled as Gifted. the others i believe have difficulty in understanding the curriculum at their school. my youngest has dealt with the faculty many times to work out issues, the trend at the 2 previous schools showed more than 3 quarters of the students were near or at failing. she has since gotten her 2 school age children into a better school where they are catching up quickly. the previous schools were definitely pushing Social Justice.
     
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  11. Dave514

    Dave514

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    that's pretty f'd up.
     
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  12. NJ1911

    NJ1911

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    Precisely the problem. Our son would always run out of time finishing his class work and have to bring it home for homework, because he was either taking too long adding stupid blocks of tens, justifying with stupid pictures why something plus something else equals what it does, or simply being sloppy/making mistakes in a rush to get an answer in under 5 minutes that it would take a normal person educated traditionally less than a millisecond to spit out. Beyond dumb.
     
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  13. Tvov

    Tvov

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    A related topic was in another thread about teaching, and teachers salaries. I posted how my town pays a LOT for our school superintendent, and he has been worth every penny over the years.... especially with "common core"! Because he threw it out, and refused to have it taught in our school system. My school system has survived the loss of some state money due to that. We have a new super now, and I am waiting for when the common core thing comes up again just due to getting more money from the state.

    My kids did get multiplication tables, and both of them said it made math much more logical.

    I absolutely do not understand "common core", or the need for it!

    Interesting about "typing".... yes, normal typing is becoming rare, but people these days can "hunt and peck" so fast that I really don't think it is that big of a deal... maybe?

    One thing to think about with cashiers today - EVERYTHING is computerized, and has to be entered correctly according to the program the store is using (whether or not it is quick), or the cashier can get in trouble. I think that is a big reason that cashiers don't routinely do things in their heads anymore - everything has to go through the computer register.
     
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  14. slamdunc

    slamdunc JAFO

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    That was about where I learned the tables. IMHO, people who missed out on this are behind the curve.
     
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  15. Dave514

    Dave514

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    The only benefit I can see (and not for minds that can't grasp the abstract concept of it yet) is that, as an adult, it helps do math in your head.

    If someone says "What's 57 + 66?", I will add 50 + 60 and then add 7 + 6, combining them back together as 110 + 13 to get 123. I don't stack the numbers like I would on paper. I break them down and add the parts.

    I believe the basic idea of teaching this kind of process to little kids is to have them be able to do that but, again, I don't think MOST of their brains are ready.
     
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  16. bdcochran

    bdcochran

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    Answering the original question, 60 years ago, kids had trouble doing it. I was able to do it.
    Now for a comment on other skills:
    1. kids will only focus on learning things which make them popular or allows them to run with the herd. I lied about my age to be able to take a public school class in how to type. At the time, only purported dummies of a certain age were allowed to take the class. After all, businessmen dictated thoughts to lowly secretaries, so it was beneath dignity to learn. However, I had figured out that top academics had the skill. Now, kids who are truant learn how to type so they can send inane messages on handhelds.
    2. At IBM, the instructors wanted us to learn machine language, programming in zeroes and ones. We said life was now beyond that. In fact, at one time I could program in many computer languages and have not programmed in any for at least 30 years now.
    3. My dad could read and speak in Latin. I am sorry that it is no longer offered in public school and wasn't offered 60 years ago.
    4. Yes cursive is no longer taught in my public school system.
    5. There used to be "release time" in public school. One afternoon a week, supposedly religious families would take a kid out of class and send him or her for religious instruction. At the time, we kids suspected that those who were released simply went home. Most of them needed the school time to keep up.
    6. My biggest complaints - the Sputnik Reaction and Busing.
    Busing. After school, we would play in teams and with friends in the neighborhood. We got exercise. Now, you sit on a bus for an hour, don't get exercise, and don't play.
    Sputnik Reaction. CA mandated one hour of homework for a number of days a week. Do you think for a moment that kids from poor neighborhoods or who were non-English speakers or had parents who were non-English speakers changed their lifestyles to be able to sit down and study at home a few hours a week? Of course not. Now, you have kids carrying backpacks because of the stupid Sputnik Reaction.
     
  17. rock_castle

    rock_castle Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness

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    The American Left has done a fine job with our public eduction system, haven’t they?
     
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  18. nerr

    nerr

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    Tried to help 3rd grade grandson with his math when we visited. Couldn't do it. Told him I could tell him the numeric answer pretty quick, but no way could I figure out the procedural 'answer' they wanted. Some kind of set theory, but nothing I ran across decades ago earning a physics minor or even with my own kids. And I thought calculus was bad.

    And if you really want to get depressed, talk to a front-line public school teacher. The teachers have to fight through all kinds of feel-good rules, distractions and behavioral issues in classroom and lack of front-office support before even starting to actually teach anything useful for kids to use in real life. And individual responsibility and having to do anything to pass are not in the curriculum.
     
  19. BradD

    BradD

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    I have mixed feelings about this stuff. I agree that most of their brains aren't ready for mental math, but I have the following thoughts also.

    Mental math is tempting because adults only do two types of math: mental that can be done in 2-3 seconds or with a calculator. I'm not so sure that lots of time with the rote methods leads to being good at mental math.

    In engineering school, I teach lots of old manual methods that lead to understanding of behavior. I omit methods that do not enhance understanding and/or require steps that'll be lost without continual practice (even if they were indispensable 30-40 years ago); some of the rote methods are like these methods, IMO.

    I need to go look to see if high school students are worse at math now than in the 80s. I know pretty smart adults who are pretty bad at math, and they learned the old way. OTOH, one of our kids who was eight or nine could tell me what 300 - 227 (or maybe 217 -- doesn't matter) was in a few seconds. She was knocking 70 off to get to 230 and then knocking three more off to get to 227, so knew it was 73. I'm probably couldn't have done that when I was in junior high, at least.
     
  20. Gun Shark

    Gun Shark

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    I’ll never forget moving to FL from the north east( say what you want about schools up there, but I was actually being challenged and encouraged every second to succeed up there... there were no bad teachers) being told not to think, and to use a calculator for something like 23x14.

    I personally don’t give a **** about cursive. I thought it was a stupid waste of time in 3rd grade and I think it’s even more stupid now.

    Basic math/civics however, is pretty damn important and it’s pathetic that since most of us carry a calculator in our pockets... being able to do 12x8= 96 in our heads is going away.
     
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