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Fn SCAR questions

Discussion in 'GSSF' started by Eastside716, Apr 29, 2010.

  1. loki993

    loki993

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    Honestly though who puts thousands of rounds through their gun without cleaning it? I know I don't. The fact is even a DI AR should be 100 percent reliable for 99.9 percent of the people buying them. Don't get me wrong the SCAR is a neat gun, but like I said if you want piston reliability you can get it in an AR for much less money. You will have the same reliability as the SCAR while maintaining all the other advantages the AR platform gives you. I just see the SCAR as a very expensive way to be different and different in the world of black rifles isn't always a good thing.
     
  2. PlasticGuy

    PlasticGuy

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    I do agree that the AR15 is reliable enough for the majority of black rifle owners, though only because they use them as occasional range toys and not as fighting rifles. And that is fair. I have guns that I don't shoot other than for fun, so spending an extra $1,000 on them would be foolish. However, most of the rest of your post I disagree with.

    First, firing 1,000 rounds of quality ammo and exposing the rifle to the elements verifies that there is enough forgiveness in the mechanism to handle the unexpected. I could see it being a concern if your rifle is the only one available in a small group and you don't want to take it off the front line for cleaning. I could see being a possibility in a riot or katrina type of situation, where it may be exposed to nasty weather, see a bit of shooting, and lots more nasty weather.

    Second, the piston AR's have been less reliable than direct impingement AR's in my experience. I've seen several in carbine classes, and only one has been as reliable as a direct impingement AR15. Most have actually been less reliable. They also experience some strange wear, due primarly to bolt carrier tipping from the piston hitting the top of the carrier. Also, every piston AR15 is different, and parts are not compatable with each other. If you break a part, and your company has discontinued that model, good luck fixing your rifle. The SCAR is military issue. Parts are standardized, and will be available for some time to come.

    I don't want to come off as a SCAR fan exactly. I don't own one, and won't own one at least until they release it in a caliber I like. I do think it's a verified improvement over the AR15 though, in both ergonomics and performance.
     

  3. mixflip

    mixflip

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    So you agree that the SCAR limits my optics choice? What if that is the optic I love and train with and have already invested $500 (+/-) in?

    The SCAR is nice but I am not buying one until the price comes down significantly. Other than to impress my buddies at the range, its not a must have for me. Not yet anyways.

    Heck the ACR is already on the shelves of my local hole in the wall gun store for $300 less than its debut price. The SCAR should be dropping in price soon too.
     
  4. Apetrulis01

    Apetrulis01

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    Well then, what other systems are more reliable then the DI system. Is the HK roller lock system more reliable then the DI system on the AR?
     
  5. PlasticGuy

    PlasticGuy

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    Most of them, in my experience. There's a reason no other rifle designer wants a DI system in their gun.
     
  6. PlasticGuy

    PlasticGuy

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    Then I'd say your priorities are a bit off. Most people pick the best optic for their rifle, and not the best rifle for their optic.
     
  7. mixflip

    mixflip

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    So now the SCAR is the best rifle?
     
  8. raven11

    raven11

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    it is better than what it replaced, as to "the best rifle" that is personal preference
     
  9. loki993

    loki993

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    I see your point, I understand what your saying, that makes sense. Do ARs really malfunction that much when they get dirty? That's actually a question, because I don't know and Id like to.

    I still don't see it being worth the extra money though, not for most people.

    I don't have any direct experience, but how they they keep their guns shooting in Iraq and Afghanistan? I'm going to have to imaging that that's probably the worst environment a rifle could be exposed to and they keep shooting. I just think even in an SHTF situation there is time somewhere for even a cursory cleaning of a rifle and it could be enough to keep it going, but I don't know for sure really. I do understand what your saying though.

    As for the piston AR thing, I didn't know that. I was going off of the assumption, that many people on the internet have, that piston ARs are supposedly more reliable than the DI ones. You have direct experience that says they aren't. You know what they say about the internet. There was a time when I wanted a piston AR, gladly I never got one. I would have been disappointed.
     
  10. PlasticGuy

    PlasticGuy

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    I am one person with one opinion. I feel I have enough experience to have a valid opinion about most of these issues, but I'm not saying that I'm right and everybody else is wrong. I'm just sharing my experience and opinions, and trying to learn from others who also have extensive experience. I numbered a few of your questions to make them easier to answer directly.

    1) In my experience, yes. I am not a soldier. What I am is a person who is issued a Colt AR15 at work every day, a person who trains constantly both at work and on personal time, and who is a patrol rifle instructor trained and certified by our state police academy. I have also taken high level civilian classes from schools like Thunder Ranch. I have seen a lot of finicky AR15's, and a lot of AR15's shut down by normal use and minor abuse that other rifle platforms shrug off. It is the rifle platform I have the most experience with, and is one of my least favorites. The more I use it, the more I find reasons not to like it in a combat role. I know soldiers who love it. I know just as many who hate it, and most of them are shooters who have enough experience with other platforms to see the faults of the AR15. I think both camps are too extreme, but overall I am not an AR15 fan.

    2) I think you're right. I think most shooters will not ever push their AR15's hard enough to find the faults. I have guns in that category myself, like most of my revolvers and bolt action rifles. I shoot them occasionally, and almost always at the range. There are better versions out there, but I'll never fire enough rounds through them in demanding enough conditions to know the difference. I would be wasting my money if I upgraded these guns from what I already have, just as many people would if they upgraded from their AR15's.

    3) Constant cleaning and lots of lube is the path to success with the AR15. If you're not fighting, you should be cleaning. If you can't clean it, at least lube it well. I've seen some filthy AR15's functioning pretty well just because they were soaked with enough CLP to keep the crud in liquid form.

    4) In theory, piston guns are more reliable. The AR15 is not the right platform for it though. Every other piston operated rifle that I can think of has rails to guide the bolt and carrier, or some method of controlling the travel of the operating parts. The AR15 does not, so the impact of the piston on the top of the carrier has a tendency to tilt the carrier down in the back. This causes some camming of the parts that adds torque to the system, and also causes wear in the reciever and buffer tube that you don't see in DI guns. They also seem to be more sensitive to weaker than normal ammo, whether due to carrier tilt or other factors. I applaud the concept, but the AR15 is really at its best with the traditional DI gas system. If a piston is desired, a different rifle is probably the best bet.
     
  11. Apetrulis01

    Apetrulis01

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    So the C93 from Century Arms (HK rifle parts) is more reliable then the AR?

    Adam
     
  12. loki993

    loki993

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    Like I said your much more experienced with this than I am, so I'm willing to take your word for it. I guess if I ever have an AR in an SHTF situation ill have to remember my can of CLP lol.
     
  13. Eastside716

    Eastside716

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    I'm assuming when the military is finished with their first bulk shipment of rifles there will be more in production for civilians. Then the price will go down. I'm hoping...

    Lol you probably should. From what I've read, the reason the M-16 platform is being replaced is because soldiers in Afghanistan were complaining about weapon malfunctions. In one incident, supposedly so many rifles were malfunctioning that 9 soldiers died and 27 were wounded. Idk if all those casualties were because of weapons malfunctions but who wants to take chances when lives are at stake?
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2010
  14. raven11

    raven11

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    don't hope too much

    FN have always been high, take a look at the FN FS2000 not used by our military but the price has hovered around the 1800-2000 mark for years
     
  15. PlasticGuy

    PlasticGuy

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    My experience with Century has been generally negative, but I don't have any experience with that particular model.
     
  16. Eastside716

    Eastside716

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    Good point. If it does stay high, at least i won't be hating myself for buying it while it's expensive.
     
  17. raven11

    raven11

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    the key to buying FN and saving money is buying FN during rebates, once or twice a year FN does a 150-250 dollar rebate on their rifles, (one year they gave away C-more sights)

    my FN FS2000 cost $1,800.00 out the door, got a $250 FN rebate, not too bad of a price

    [​IMG]
     
  18. PlasticGuy

    PlasticGuy

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    I was just talking to my dealer about that yesterday. He said that SCAR availability through his distributers is finally very good, and when that point came with the FS2000 and PS90, FN announced their rebate program for them. He's right. I do remember that. I don't think the prices will fall much if any more on the SCAR rifles, but I wouldn't be a bit surprised if they offer a rebate program for them soon.

    Then again, they may be hoping the release of the 7.62x51 version will cause another spike in sales of the 5.56 version, and that is supposed to be mid or late summer.
     
  19. TalkToTheGlock

    TalkToTheGlock Zombie Hunter

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    When that time comes that the 7.62 comes out, I am going to be all over that. I sold my S&W M&P15 recently and have been itching for a non-AK rifle. I was gonna break down and buy the 5.56, but I love the feeling of the SCAR and can't wait for the 17 to come out.
     
  20. Chonny

    Chonny

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    There's not really any reason to overspend unless you want to.