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Florida Stand Your Ground Situation

  1. I ride a motorcycle... a lot. Will hit a bunch of rallies every year. Daytona, Bike Week, Biketoberfest, Sturgis, and rallies most of you have never heard of. I have Iron Butt Association # 48383. (google it)

    I live in Florida and I am a gun owner. Here is my question that I have posted on motorcycle forums.

    For bike week, as an example, there are always questions about concealed carry in Florida, and for the most part the answers are spot on.

    Zimmerman's situation has brought to light a point I've made on those forums.

    If you are in a bar drinking, and right, wrong , or otherwise you get into a bar fight. Maybe your fault, maybe not. And you proceed to get a good ol fashioned azz kicking. When, if ever do you have the right to draw your gun and pull the trigger? When he hits you and you get your nose broken? When he knocks you down and starts kicking you in the ribs? When he lets you up just to hit you again?

    Anyone who has been in a bar fight or two knows what I am talking about.

    There are a lot of Junior Billy Bad Azz posers showing up at bike rallies and sometimes ending up in bars they probably shouldn't be in. (not so many of those bars in Daytona but elsewhere there are)

    The question is:

    Given what is happening with Zimmerman, when is it appropriate to draw your weapon during a gold ol fashioned bar fight and azz kicking?

    What I consider a severe butt kicking, others might consider life threatening (or at least they are getting scared to death)
     
  2. I think you need some other form of recreation .... :alex:

    .
     
  3. Well, first you'd be breaking the law, regardless. You aren't allowed to carry in a bar in FL.
     
  4. Great point. Outside the bar on the sidewalk.
     
  5. Are you carrying a gun to defend yourself "from the threat of death or grave bodily harm to the innocent" (essentially the definition of "justifiable homicide" that justifies our CCWs).

    Or are you carrying a gun to be a "bad azz"?

    In my estimation, if you are carrying a gun to be a "bad azz", and like to get into drunken bar fights just for fun, and think you could possibly justify using lethal force to get outr of a stupid, drunken altercaton you should never have gotten into in the first place, you are too dam immature to be carrying a gun at all.

    And by "immature" I don't care if you are 18 or 80.

    If you are carrying a gun for the wrong reasons you should not be carrying a gun at all.

    Carry a gun..

    Drunken bar brawls.

    Choose one or the other.

    No one is entitled to both.
     

  6. I have a high stress job. Riding the bike is one of the few ways I take my mind off business.
     
  7. I don't carry on a bike. But there are plenty that do. My point is even if it is unintentional, you are sober and/or it does not go your way, when does a fight reach the point you can draw a weapon?
     
  8. I ride as well, but my position is that I don't put myself in the situation. No alcohol when I drive or ride. That also means I don't go to places that it would be an issue that I'm concerned.
     
  9. Jonesee
    Your problem is you admitted that getting into druken bar fights while carrying a firearm! Having a "High stress job " is no excuse. Time to grow up! As been stated above make a choice - be a responsible gun owner/carrier or be a drunken brawler. And even being on the sidewalk out side a bar waiting for a fight to get into doesn't cut it. You put yourself into a situation where you knew it could happen so no you couldn't claim selfdefense.:faint:

    Reading your post#7

    You have no SA do you. Hell when I walked into a bar when I used to go to them - I could tell you within 5 minutes if there was going to be trouble and who was going to start it!
     

  10. No I didn't!! Re read the post. I laid out a situation that is not uncommon. Maybe it is a domestic disturbance, a fight over a wayward woman, you insert the reason.

    I admit to getting into fights when I was younger and healed faster. I don't do that anymore. I'm old now. Probably old enough to be the father of most members here on the forum. I break instead of bounce now...

    I personally don't carry except to throw a gun in the car when traveling with the family.

    My question is, as driven home by the Zimmerman situation. At what point in a fight, do the forum members believe it reaches a point to allow a stand your ground situation?
     
  11. Rule 1. Bike week (panama city) is for old hags showing their floppy boobs that look like Q balls in a tube sock, and drunks cheering them on.

    Rule 2. Dont go to bars were those same people are.
     
  12. Pepper spray!
    My opinion... if it is a fight, both parties are participating in the violence exchange. You can not respond with a gun when the fight is not going your way.
    If you are being assaulted, meaning you tried to avoid the confrontation, that would be a different story.
     
  13. Alcohol removes your right to carry. Fighting removes your right to self defense.
     
  14. Alcohol will impair your ability to make a reasonable judgement about the threat against you, and your impairment will be the central theme in your subsequent interrogation and (probably) criminal and civil trials.
     

  15. Yes you are.

    You just cannot be seated at the area primarily licensed to sell alcohol. (The actual bar itself).

    You can drink your beer at a table or highboy. The dining room. Out on the patio. In the establishment.
     
  16. No it doesn't. Not in every instance. Sometimes. Varies by state and condition.
     
  17. Your post perfectly illustrates the difficulty in drafting and judging these laws. Not sure if you did that on purpose, but drawing the line as to when an aggressor became a deadly threat, thereby justifying a killing, is impossible.

    There is no way to give a bright-line rule (or the guidance you seek) in these situations. It must be on a case-by-case basis. Unfortunately, the Zimmerman case also shows how difficult it is to know what really happened in the heat of battle.
     
  18. A fight by mutual consent is going to be a petty offense in most states and is not going to look good if you even accidentally kill the other person. If two people enter into an illegal activity and one is harmed as a result, you're sure not going to get a free pass on any self-defense claim, and you're going to have a really tough time convincing a jury.
     
  19. By the way... Now that you have expressed these thoughts on a public forum, if you are ever in such an incident in the future, it's going to look like you plotted it.
     
  20. In Florida, it is illegal to carry a firearm and drink at the same time.

    BUT, if you were to be carrying while drinking, and you use the firearm, and the shoot is deemed lawful self defense, then there is an exception to being drunk.

    So, basically, you can't carry when you're drinking, but if you are carrying drunk, and use the gun lawfully, you don't get charged.
     
  21. Not quite. Close, but not quite.

    You can't carry in any part of the bar which is primarily devoted to serving alcohol. For example, if the bar has a pool hall area, you can carry there. Technically, you could carry in the crapper. You could carry in a booth or at a table provided they serve food, such as in the case of a sports bar. You could carry on a dancefloor in some situations.

    Its a really touchy bit of red tape.
     
  22. Also close but incorrect. You can carry the weapon. You can't handle it. So technically taking it off and putting it on, if drunk, are illegal. But carrying it on you is not.

    There are levels of drunkeness, .1 is the magic number, and yes there is a big ol' exemption for if you use it in lawful self defense even while drunk.
     
  23. These happen to be my rules. You can do whatever you want and deal with the consequences.

    I ride.
    I carry when I ride.
    When I ride I don't drink.
    When I carry I don't drink.

    It'll be up to the prosecutor, judge, jury and how much you spend for your lawyer to determine the outcome.

    In Michigan, the "magic" number for BAC when carrying is anything over .02 Link

    Get caught and it will cost you your weapon, $100 and your carry license.

    HH
     
  24. Well done sir. I hadn't looked up the statute in a while.

    It would essentially seem here that carrying while drinking is lawful. But, you can't carry into the portion of an establishment designated for the sole purpose of the consumption of alcohol. So, if I'm reading this right (not sure), it says to me that you can carry and drink, but, not in a place that doesnt serve food. EDIT: Excuse me, "primarily devoted"

    If you're at a Chili's drinking at the bar, it's ok because they serve food there also?

    If you're drinking at a club, which has no food, then you're committing a crime by virtue of even being there, rather than drinking.

    Thoughts?

    EDIT:

    It's also only a misdemeanor. Ha!
     

  25. I personally take it to mean the 'portions' of the establishment. For example, I can't sit at the bar at Chilis because they're primarily devoted to serving alcohol at the bar, so I get a table or booth. But theres also a bar up the road from me with an entire side of it devoted to pool tables and semi-cordoned off from the bar, I carry into there as its primary purpose is pool, not booze.

    Don't really know who's right on that one. For my part, I chance it. If I had to advise anybody else, I'd probably say, "Play it safe."
     
  26. When he said "I think you need some other form of recreation" he was referring to drinking alcohol in public bars, not riding a motorcycle.
     
  27. Here in Nevada, you can be too drunk to legally drive, and still be legal to CCW. The streets flow day and night with the blood of drunken bar brawlers shooting each other. :whistling:. And I literally mean all day and night, because many bars are open 24/7.
     

  28. Oh... I grew up decades ago. I honestly can't remember the last hangover I had.

    A scotch before or a wine with dinner is all I drink anymore. My greatest vice for years has been cigars.
     
  29. Just my opinion but alcohol and guns are not a good idea!:dunno:
     
  30. Just don't drink. Problem solved.