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Although that is not the reason I would shoot carjackers, I do agree that it is not worth dying over a vehicle and hope that is what the bad guys would be thinking, if able, after I shot them. Other than not being the kind of guy that would trust bad men to show mercy, I would have a firearm on me and often another one in the vehicle I should not let them get their hands on.

" Bell flashed a gun in his waistband and demanded her keys. The woman gave Bell her purse, which contained her wallet and keys, and ran from the vehicle. Bell initially ran after the woman, but then returned to the vehicle, got in the driver’s seat, and drove to pick up Piche, who was several rows away in the parking lot."

She complied so why run after her if not to harm her? Had she not run I bet he would have harmed her right then or forced her in the car so they both could harm her later. Good thing she ran and was not rooted where she was standing out of fear like some would be. And Bell did more than flash his gun according to the following article. These were bad men and she is lucky she got away.

Two men charged with carjacking woman at Rosedale Center in Roseville – Twin Cities

From the article.
Piche's history---"At the time of his arrest, he was on conditional release from Ramsey County jail after posting a $20,000 bond in August 2020 relating to charges of third-degree criminal sexual conduct and fifth-degree criminal sexual conduct."

Bell's history -- "Since 1991, he has been convicted of 18 felonies in several Minnesota counties and currently is on probation for a theft conviction last year in Dakota County. "
 

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On Camera, what’s the Justified self defense shoot gonna look like?
the gun was never really taken out during the carjacking, did the camera catch this ?

Maybe it was an object that she thought was a handgun. there wasn’t any physical force mentioned. . Just a woman who left running.

The police stopped the chase, picked up the suspects later,
Did the police find a gun? I’m not sure.

The Gun charge will probably be dropped.
 

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On Camera, what’s the Justified self defense shoot gonna look like?
the gun was never really taken out during the carjacking, did the camera catch this ?

Maybe it was an object that she thought was a handgun. there wasn’t any physical force mentioned. . Just a woman who left running.

The police stopped the chase, picked up the suspects later,
Did the police find a gun? I’m not sure.

The Gun charge will probably be dropped.
If the victim had killed him, it would have been much easier for the police to find the gun.

Did you know that there is no state where deadly force requires that the bad guy had a real gun?
 

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Two men charged with carjacking woman at Rosedale Center in Roseville – Twin Cities

From the article.
Piche's history---"At the time of his arrest, he was on conditional release from Ramsey County jail after posting a $20,000 bond in August 2020 relating to charges of third-degree criminal sexual conduct and fifth-degree criminal sexual conduct."

Bell's history -- "Since 1991, he has been convicted of 18 felonies in several Minnesota counties and currently is on probation for a theft conviction last year in Dakota County. "
The fact that these two clowns had significant criminal histories is, in hindsight, disturbing and shows thst they‘re nothing better than violent career criminals, but the victim would not have necessarily known that at the time of the car jacking. Bringing a criminal’s history into court in the trial of a victim who defended him or herself who is now on trial may be a bloody fight to get allowed into court as evidence. Some judges in some jurisdictions are pretty bad at allowing that stuff into court. The discretion would be at the early stages when a prosecutor determines whether the person who defended themselves was justified or wasn’t, or for reasons not always legitimate such as political interest over public interest, should be charged.

The crook flashed a gun at the 67 year old victim and she readily complied - then ran - to which he initially chased her for whatever reason - but maybe there was some intent to kidnap and go on an ATM tour. Anyway, with a younger, more fit victim, or a victim of a different variable - who knows what goes thru a crook’s mind - he might have decided to draw and point. That certainly would have changed how a victim would have perceived the threat. While crooks generally have their MOs, there’s no cookie cutter scenario for use of self defense other than the presence of ability, opportunity,and jeopardy - all at the same time. That’s what each individual who finds themselves in an unavoidable situation must act within, even though the victim would likely be too surprised and/or too scared to be thinking about legal precedent in the seconds leading up to the decision to act. I‘m not telling someone not to defend themselves, but it will be a personal decision, not something debated beforehand on a public forum.
 

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Yes I would agree,
would a concealed carry toy handgun fall under the use of deadly physical force ?
Do you mean if the bad guy's gun turned out to be a toy?

Yes, that is a justified shooting if you think it's real. My brother once shot a guy who pulled a toy gun on him. Clearly justified and no problem.
 

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Yes I meant if the gun was a toy, AND it wasn’t pulled OUT From the bad guy.
Not only does no state require him to have a real gun to justify deadly force - no state requires him to pull it out. He threatened deadly force and had the means to do it. No law anywhere requires you to wait until you can't win before you shoot him.
 

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Yes I would agree,
would a concealed carry toy handgun fall under the use of deadly physical force ?
Brens a lawyer so he should know more than anyone. I've told the story before, but we confronted a guy we witnessed put a gun in his waist band. When asked about it he said FU ** and attempted to draw. After he was disarmed it turned out to be a replica gun. Looked totally real, responding officer said he wouldn't have been able to tell the difference.
 

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I feel badly for the lady that was hijacked, both from the lack of SA and inability to defend herself, but I was wondering what GT braintrust thought of themselves in this situation.

"Bell flashed a gun in his waistband and demanded her keys."

My initial thought was “I'll show you mine if you show me yours.” Does one “flash” similarly? Grip the gun in the holster? Ask him if he feels lucky?
No two events are the same. An individual has to make the best decision they can based on the circumstances. That scenario is odd that he showed his gun instead of wielding it. Why? Did he think that was a lesser offense? Did he not want a camera showing him pointing a gun? Might someone use an air pistol and not want to show the whole thing? Was he out of bullets? Any decent state allows an individual to use deadly force when a reasonable person would believe their life to be in danger or under the threat of severe bodily harm. But realistically, other than the "threat," how often is it that someone dies during a carjacking? You may have the right to shoot, but is it necessary? How quickly can you present your firearm? Fast enough to catch the perpetrator off-guard? I'd like to be prepared if such a thing were to happen to me, but unless I had a child in the back, the best thing to do might be to surrender the vehicle and call the police. Even better, move out of areas where carjackings are common! Safe shooting all.
 

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Yes I would agree,
would a concealed carry toy handgun fall under the use of deadly physical force ?
All that matters is the implication. If a person believes their life in danger they can take any necessary actions against the threat. If you believe the gun to be real that's all that matters. Cops have shot and killed a lot of foolish people with replica firearms. The applicable law in almost all cases is, "what would a reasonable person think?"
 

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Discussion Starter · #78 ·
“Give me your keys” as he pointed a handgun at her stomach. The barrel of the gun was nearly touching her.

Quote from the Roseville-Twin Cities article.

Slightly different nuance of the DOJ article…

Yo! Homie! Is that my briefcase?
 
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All that matters is the implication. If a person believes their life in danger they can take any necessary actions against the threat. If you believe the gun to be real that's all that matters. Cops have shot and killed a lot of foolish people with replica firearms. The applicable law in almost all cases is, "what would a reasonable person think?"
I see your point as you describe the gun as being a threat. A drawn handgun toy or real is absolutely a threat imo Also.

it the gun wasn’t drawn.
the gun wasn’t drawn,
maybe it was a toy, maybe it was a toy
 
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