First 45 GAP Reloads

Discussion in 'The Bull Dawgs Club' started by BobR1, Feb 9, 2018.

  1. BobR1

    BobR1

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    At first my plan was to just re-adjust my Dillon 45acp dies. Then I got to thinking, I have RCBS Carbide 45acp dies on the shelf. I boxed up my Dillon 44 Magnum Dies to free up a Tool Head for my 550 Dillon. I installed a spare Powder Funnel, Shell Plate and Locator Pins that I had on hand, and started putting things together. First order of business was to install new 1" Lock Rings on all the dies. A while back I made an order to Dillon Precision and ordered enough 1" Lock Rings to update all the dies I am currently using on my 550, plus a few. I then started making adjustments. First station was the Sizing Die. This is the simple one, just screw it down till it touches the raised Shell Plate, and lock down the Lock Ring. Station Two bells the case and drops the powder. This takes two steps to set up. First adjustment is screwing down the Powder Die until you get just the right amount of bell on the case mouth. Lock the die down, and tighten down the Powder Measure. Next adjustment is the powder charge. I added Long Shot powder to the hopper, and started making adjustments until I reached 7.0 grains. Station Three is the Bullet Seating Die. I had previously checked my inventory of 45 bullets for my Colt 1911. I have 1 box of Hornady 185 grain XTP's, and Two boxs of 185 Sierra Hollow Points that are probably 20 years old. The price on the box was $11.00. I had part of a box of old Speer 200 grain Flying Ash Tray bullets. I also have several hundred 230 Golden Sabers, and also a quantity of 230 Winchester Bulk HP bullets. That was the extend of my jacketed bullets. I also have several 500 round box's of Missouri Bullet Company 230 grain Solt Ball, and purchased just yesterday one 500 round box of Missouri Bullet Company 200 Grain OddBall Round Nose Flat Point Coated Bullets for range use with the 45 GAP. I selected the 185 Sierra Hollow Points for my initial loads.
    I adjusted the Seater Die for an OAL of 1.070.
    Station Four is the Taper Crimp Station. I made the final adjustment for the taper crimp, and I was ready to make ammo.
    Not getting too carried away until I can shoot a few rounds for function, I only reloaded around 20 rounds.
    What a surprise!!!! I was sure with all the negative comments I read about the 45 GAP that I would have encountered some major problem reloading the ammunition for it. No Problems What So Ever. The 45 GAP reloads exactly like 45acp. SURPRISE!!

    I also did some checking on factory carry ammunition. The 45acp is waaaay ahead on selection. With that statement out of the way, the 45 GAP has several Defensive Carry Loads available to all us Crazies who own one.
    Buffalo Bore 185's and 200's.
    Double Tap with 185 Nozler Bullets.
    Federal Hydra Shocks in 185 and 230 grain weights.
    Remington 230 JHP
    Winchester 230 JHP
    Winchester 185 Silver Tips
    Speer 185 and 200 Gold Dot Hollow Points
    and a few other lesser known offerings.
    Surprisingly all traveling at almost exactly the same velocity as the 45acp counterpart.

    I have read that the 45 GAP can stay with the 45acp on velocity, except in +P loadings. I had a surprise here, I only have 3 listings for +P 45acp on my comparison chart. The Remington 185 +P with Golden Saber bullets at 1140 fps. The Double Tap 45 GAP with 185 Nozler bullets is rated at 1150 fps :). The other two are 230 grain loading's. The Buffalo Bore 230+P at 950 fps has the 45 GAP loading by 50 fps, and the Hornady 230 +P XTP also going 950 fps. Most 230 GAP loading's are 880 fps and 900 fps for the Buffalo Bore. In 45acp you can probably find more Reduced Recoil Loads than +P loads. This tells me that Standard Velocity 45acp traveling at the same speed as 45 GAP has about all the recoil most shooters can tolerate, especially in non-full size semi automatics.

    I have been doing lots of reading, both on line and in printed reloading manuals, and powder company pamphlet's. If you look enough, you can find enough loading data to work with for about any bullet you would want to load in a 45 GAP. The 45 GAP suffers from the same problem as all other handguns, lots of new powders with little to no handgun reloading data available.

    Once I get a few thousand pieces of 45 GAP brass rounded up at a reasonable cost, I see a long relationship coming with my Gen 3 Glock 38.

    Bob R
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
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  2. dudel

    dudel

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    Great post. One thing most people forget, is that standard barrel for measuring 45ACP velocity is 5 inches. Standard barrel for 45GAP is 4". That inch can make a difference.

    Yes, I'm a 45GAP fan.
     

  3. BobR1

    BobR1

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    Going to fire a few at the range today. I took the G38 to the shop with me this morning, and tried my reloads in the barrel :(
    My ammo failed the Plunk Test.
    My old RCBS carbide die set had a Bonanza Taper Crimp Die with it. It was not doing the job.
    I went to a Gun Show at West Plains today looking for a Taper Crimp Die, GAP Brass, etc. Found nothing at the gun show.
    On the way home I stopped at Cabool at The Missouri Gun Company. He had a Lee 45acp Factory Crimp Die in stock. Marked for 45acp/45AR/45 Win Mag. I crossed my fingers and bought it. When I got home I installed it and ran all my test loads through the new Taper Crimp Die. BINGO they all now pass the Plunk Test.
    I am now ready to try my reloads out.

    Bob R
     
  4. BobR1

    BobR1

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    Made it to the Range today. First I fired a box of Remington 230 FMJ through the G38.3. No doubt in my mind that this is "Full Power" Practice Ammo.
    //
    Next I fired up all of my Reloads with 185 gr Sierra HP's over 7.0 grains of Longshot. This was a very pleasant load. Almost too pleasant. It really needed to be a little warmer to kick the brass out over my shoulder a little better.
    //
    No malfunctions of any kind. My G38.3 ran perfectly.
    //
    It was a very good Range Day, I came home with 3 more pieces of 45 GAP Brass than what I fired.
    //
    My brass is being cleaned as I type this. I have figured out having it Clean and Bright will really help getting it all home.
    //
    My next load will probably be the Missouri Bullet Company 200 GR Round Nose Flat Point "OddBall" bullets with the Extreme Coating.

    Bob R
     
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  5. BobR1

    BobR1

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    My next load ended up being some carry ammo to hold me over until I get some factory carry ammo rounded up. I loaded 40 rounds. Nine in the gun, two each ten round G37 magazines in my double magazine carrier, and a third ten round G37 magazine in the front right pocket of my vest for sweep ballast.
    //
    Brass: New Starline
    Bullets: Sierra 185 HP
    Primers: Federal
    Powder: Longshot
    Powder Charge: 7.5
    Velocity should be approximately 976 fps @ 22,400 psi from the 4" barrel of a G38
    //
    I anticipate this to be a very comfortable load to fire.

    Bob R
     
  6. BobR1

    BobR1

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    I have some 10mm Bear Loads to put together for a buddy going out west. So I need to use up the small primers in the 550 Dillon.
    I started to try some American Select under the 200 grain Lead Round Nose Range bullets. I tried one load with 5.0 grains of American Select. I shot it without a magazine in place. The brass dropped out of the Mag Well. Looks like it will need a warmer load to function. I decided to go back to a book load for the moment.

    Brass: Starline
    Bullets" Missouri Bullet Company 200 gr OddBall RN Coated bullets
    Primers: federal
    Powder: Long Shot
    Charge: 7.0 grains

    I only loaded 4 rounds. I will shoot them tomorrow to make sure I am happy with how they perform. Then I will finish loading until I run the primer feed empty. I will then load a box of 10mm, then back to 45GAP.

    Bob R
     
  7. BobR1

    BobR1

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    Back to playing with 45GAP Loads.
    Ran several rounds through the 550 Dillon.
    Sized & Primed Station 1.
    Belled and Power Charge Station 2.
    Pulled the case out and dumped the powder charge Station 3. Then put the brass in a Loading Block.

    Next I would weigh out 5 loads on my powder scale. Then back in to Station 3 to seat the 200 grain Missouri Company Coated Round Nose "OddBall" bullet, then to Station 4 for the Taper Crimp.

    At this point the 5 loaded rounds went into a zip loc sandwich bag with a File Card with the Bullet information, Powder and Charge used for that load.

    I lack about 6 powders that I would like to try out:
    Universal
    True Blue
    231
    WSF
    Zip
    Titegroup

    I do have a few powders on hand that I can try out:
    Long Shot
    AA#2
    AA#5
    HS-6
    Unique
    American Select
    20/28
    Clays
    e3
    CFE Pistol
    Power Pistol
    Blue Dot
    800X
    700X
    Red Dot

    I am not sure at this time how many powders that I will try out. Looks like it will be raining for about the next week. We have a break in the rain Friday, and I have to go to Springfield to take my brother to the doctor Friday. I have plenty of time to load all the powders that I have, if I decide to.
    While I am in Springfield I plan to make a run by CrossBreed Holsters and take a look at a Super Tuck in person for my G38.

    I ran across some Cast Bullets that I would like to try out.
    www.badmanbullets.com has a 180 grain RNFP and 185 grain Round Nose. Available in Plated and Lubed versions.
    185 RN Lubed Version: $99/1,000 Free Shipping
    185 RN Polymer Coated: $110/1,000 Free Shipping
    180 RNFP Lubed Version: $99/1,000 Free Shipping
    180 RNFP Polymer Coated: $109/1,000 Free Shipping

    They have more savings on 2K and 3K orders.

    Back to the Loading Room.

    Bob R
     
  8. es 350

    es 350

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    Just curious as to what velocity / bullet weight "bear loads" you loaded for your buddy?

    While NOT suggesting you or anyone else load to levels I do!
    Have hashed this out for several years about ACP brass shortened for use in GAP.
    While some agree , I think most disagree that it CAN be done and CAN provide an increase in performance to the lowly GAP. Although other mods to platform ARE REQUIRED , I get 10MM + performance from my GAPS when/if wanted or needed for hunting or just for range fun.

    WITH PROPER MODS !!!!!!!
    I shoot 230 jacketed @ 1225 fps
    200 Jacketed @ 1300 fps
    Or 185 jacketed to 1425 fps from my G37's and G39's.
    This makes the GAP more versatile in many situations for me and just neat to tell/show the 10MM guys what the "useless" 45 GAP can do when PROPERLY MODIFIED AND USING STRONGER 45 ACP BRASS MODIFIED TO WORK IN 45 GAP CHAMBERED GUNS!!!!
    NEVER ATTEMPT ABOVE LOADS OR ANYWHERE NEAR IN GAP BRASS OR PLATFORM WITHOUT PROPER MODIFICATIONS!!!!!! OR WITHOUT USE OF PROPER LOADING COMPONENTS AND KNOWLEDGE!!!!!!
    ABOVE IS FOR INFORMATIONAL PURPOSE ONLY AND I ASSUME NO LIABILITY FOR WHAT ANYONE DOES !!!!!!!!!!!!!
     
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  9. BobR1

    BobR1

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    Hornady Manual
    Maximum Load listed with 200 grain XTP and Blue Dot Powder.
    I have loaded past book loads in the past for my 610 Revolver. I would not go past a Book Load for others.
    They are as Bad as he can stand to shoot in a G29.

    Bob R
     
  10. fasteddie565

    fasteddie565 Combat Diver

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    I used Power Pistol for a while, but now that they are selling it again, I am loading Universal. All I shoot is reloads with 200 Grn HP Xtreme coated bullets. They run like scalded apes.
     
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  11. dudel

    dudel

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    Bullseye works well for my 45GAP loads. It's a pretty flexible powder, so you'll find plenty of uses for it.
     
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  12. es 350

    es 350

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    One thing I have found with GAP, just about any handgun powder will work and normally works well.
    The short case keeps load density high even with light loads providing good accuracy.
    For normal loads I prefer Power Pistol with jacketed bullets and green dot or 800x for cast loads.
    As said pretty much pick a powder that you want to use that provides velocity you want (Book loads) And think you will be happy.
     
  13. BobR1

    BobR1

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    es 350 from all my reading on 45GAP reloading that I have done. It looks like you are right on target. I have found loading data on about every powder suitable for loading in non-magnum handguns being used to load the 45GAP. Some may not be capable of getting to the maximum velocity possible with the 45GAP, but that is still ok for most range use. I seldom load range ammunition to the maximum possible in cartridge that I load for, which is a pretty extensive list. My list of priorities would be 100% function, hitting all reactive steel hard enough to knock them over or around. Acceptable smoke level. Metering reasonably well through a Dillon Powder Measure using a bubbler. Not damaging bullet coatings. Reasonable accuracy.

    One real challenge is figuring out the proper loads for cast bullet use in the 45 GAP. Normally if you load a cast and jacketed bullet with the same powder charge the cast bullet velocity will be higher. With the limited amount of published loading data for cast bullets for the 45GAP one must do some thinking. The Lyman 49th Edition only lists 9 powders for 200 grain Cast Bullets in the 45 GAP. Clays, Titegroup, 231/HP38/Zip, Universal, N140, WSF, Power Pistol, True Blue, and Blue Dot. Looking at 200 grain JHP loading data we also have Longshot listed for Jacketed but not cast loads for what ever reason.

    When you take a look at the 45acp 200 grain Cast Loading Data you will see a much larger list of 19 powders including such powders as: 700X, Bullseye, Red Dot, N120, WST, WSF, Green Dot, SR-7625, Unique, SR-4756, Power Pistol, AA#5, and HS-6. Anyone with much reloading experience can figure out that most if not all of these powders will also work in the 45GAP cartridge.

    Doing a comparison of 45acp and 45GAP 200 grain Cast bullet loads common between the two cartridges I was able to come up with a load reduction percentage which worked out to 88% on average. I did not use True Blue in the calculation as it was 97%, and would have inflated the other percentages which were all very close. I did this work up using starting loads. Starting and Maximum load percentages were almost identical except in the case of Blue Dot where the larger 45acp case was able to hold a lot more powder than the 45GAP. The maximum 45 acp Blue Dot load of 10.6 grains was down to 79% charge weight when used in the 45GAP which had a maximum charge weight of 8.4 grains.

    Today would have been a great day to chronograph loads, but I had to make a run to Springfield. Looking like about 4 more days of rain after today. I might be able to round up samples of a few more powders between now and weather clearing back up again.

    Bob R
     
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  14. BobR1

    BobR1

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    I visited a couple buddy's yesterday who have been reloading for years. I took zip loc Sandwich Bags, my 1 Cup Powder Dipper, Powder Funnel, a Lee Powder Measure Dipper, and File Cards. I rounded up samples to reload about 10 rounds of a few more powders that I did not have on hand.
    I now have:
    Zip
    231
    HP38
    BE86
    Titegroup
    Solo 1000
    Green Dot
    and I bought a jug of Universal.

    One buddy who is really into shotgun reloading had a few more shotgun powders that I did not think would work for handgun loading very well. Steel, and Titewad come to mind.

    Looking at bullets I found some new ones on the shelf. Sig V Crown made by Sierra. I did not know that Sierra was making the Sig V Crown bullets either. When I get around to working with jacketed bullets I will have 185 Sierra HP's, 185 Hornady XTP's, 185 Speer Gold Dot's, and the 185 Sig V Crown's to play with. I also have Winchester 230 HP's and 230 Golden Sabers. So far I have not located any 200 rain Speer Gold Dot's on the shelf at any of my sources. I have not checked on line so far.

    Back to loading a few more test rounds after Church.

    Bob R.
     
  15. BobR1

    BobR1

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    I got started with my ammo testing yesterday.
    I had done some reading to determine the OAL with 200 grain round nose lead bullets. I loaded to that length without checking them in the chamber.
    I had test fired a few of those length rounds through my factory barrel, and they had worked fine.
    Well they did not work with the Lone Wolf barrel installed. I took the barrel out and did the plunk test. The Missouri Bullet Company 200 grain Round Nose "OddBall" Bullets needed seated a little deeper. The bullets have a sort of shoulder where the round nose begins. This shoulder needs to be flush with the case mouth. They failed the plunk test in the factory barrel also. The factory barrel must have let the slide push the round into the chamber, even a hair long.
    Not a huge deal to fix, just a slight set back waiting on another nice day. Looking like another 4 days of possible snow and rain starting today. We should be back into nice spring weather by 13 April according to the KY3 weatherman.
    I have a few more powders to load. This will give me time to work with them.
    I still have a few more powders I would like to find samples of, Bullseye, WSF, WST, Ram Shot Competition, and True Blue come to mind. I would be tempted to just buy a can of WST, and True Blue which seems to be pretty well likes in some circles.

    Bob R
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2018
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  16. fasteddie565

    fasteddie565 Combat Diver

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  17. BobR1

    BobR1

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    I will get back to my testing one of these days.
    For being retired I am getting pretty busy.
    My brother had a heart valve replaced, and I am filling in for him at the local hardware store. Then we have driving him to appointments. Friday I am off,sort of. I have 4 pork loins to cook on the smoker for around 6 hours, gallons of cold slaw to make up, and a few gallons of cowboy baked beans to get ready for Saturdays Tactical Steel Rifle Match at the Sportsman's Club.
    I may have some time after Church Sunday.

    Bob R
     
  18. Borg Warner

    Borg Warner

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    For the 45 Gap ou need to stay in the fast to medium burn rate range and use powders that are slightly faster than what you would use for the 45 auto.

    Thuis would include:
    231
    HP38
    Winchester WSL
    Unique
    Universal
    Power Pistol
    BE86

    AA5, 800x, true Blue and Autocomp are all on teh slow side, and Blue dot, and longshot are way too slow burning for such a small case relative to bullet diameter like the 45 GAP. Those are the powder you need to be using in your 10mm "Bear loads" along with AA7 or better yet AA9 which is even slower.

    You said you tried American select in the 10 mm and that powder is much to fast burning for the 10mm. It's about halfway in burn rate between bullseye and 231. I suggest you get a Loadbooks USA and look at that data for the 10mm to see what powders give the top velocities in the 10mm. You'll notice that it will always be the slowest powders.

    here's a burn rate chart just to give you a relative idea of different burn rates. If you understand burn rate relative to case capacity you aren't just picking powders at random.

    [​IMG]
     
  19. BobR1

    BobR1

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    Borg Warner I can see where I caused some confusion jumping from "I need to load some 10mm for a buddy" TO the American Select load tried in the 45GAP.
    I got to using American Select and 20/28 when Unique was off the shelf. Both are a hair faster then Unique on the Chart. Both seem to work well in Range/Match Ammo for 38 Special, 40 S&W, and 45acp loads. NOTE: My Range/Match 40 S&W ammo is not loaded hot at all. I use a cheap aquarium bubblier on my powder reservoirs to get the flake powder to measure well through the Dillon powder measure.
    I could probably put together some low to mid range 10mm cast loads with AS, but you are right it is not an optimum 10mm powder at all.

    Bob
     
  20. fasteddie565

    fasteddie565 Combat Diver

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    I use American Select for 45 ACP and Power Pistol and Universal for 45 GAP and 10mm