Finger on trigger or not?

Discussion in 'Tactics and Training' started by ithaca_deerslayer, Aug 9, 2020.

  1. 686 AR15 G17Fan

    686 AR15 G17Fan

    Messages:
    3,159
    Likes Received:
    7,493
    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2018
    snowbird.40 and sourdough44 like this.
  2. billorights

    billorights

    Messages:
    3,103
    Likes Received:
    5,173
    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2008
    I won't say everything I think about some of the current fashions on handgun handling, but hell yes my finger is on.
     

  3. Tomcat1977

    Tomcat1977 "Cynical Little me"

    Messages:
    7,033
    Likes Received:
    10,879
    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2005
    Location:
    USA
    Well said and praise the truth. Most of all people, cops or not, have to be very careful of where, and how, and when that barrel is pointed at and why. Very careful of flashing the business end at your own, or the innocent, thats how accidents happen under stress. Ive always been very wary of who is behind me when going thru doors or in any hostile situation when guns are out.

    To tell you the truth Ive mostly worked alone. My cigar's were part of it but not having to suffer fools was also part. Ive had maybe 3 partners Ive trusted with my life, but, there are times when you have to clear and or search looking for dangerous felons and while as much as I didn't like them I was often grateful for DAO triggers behind me.

    My Last one was a triple, singles to the heads, where we had to search a house. I picked an ex-Army who'd been in the sand to help me. It turned out nobody was home but we didn't know that at the time.

    I think the strykers are great tools but they also changed the rules and it took much, much training time to master the safety needed, in my mind, to carry them. Especially for L.E. .
     
  4. Green Dragoon

    Green Dragoon

    Messages:
    7,641
    Likes Received:
    11,425
    Joined:
    May 31, 2009
    Thanks for your post....you read my mind. I too feel there is a big difference between LE and civilians in this scenario. If I'm pulling my gun, I'm shooting. If the "threat" is now down after being shot and not moving at the moment, that is the only time I could think of that I would need to cover them still but remove my finger from the trigger.

    This has been a great thread. I'll be honest that there is one thing I never thought of before. I carry a DA/SA pistol with a light (3 lb) SA trigger pull. If the "threat" is down and I still cover him, do I drop the hammer back to DA?
     
  5. jk_226

    jk_226

    Messages:
    1,080
    Likes Received:
    1,863
    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2017
    Finger off trigger until I've decided to shoot. It takes a fraction of second to smoothly transition from the ready with your finger along the side of the frame pointing at target to squeezing the trigger.

    [​IMG]
     
  6. jk_226

    jk_226

    Messages:
    1,080
    Likes Received:
    1,863
    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2017
    I'm with you. If the weapon is pointed at me I'm already firing, and moving for cover if available.
     
  7. Bill Lumberg

    Bill Lumberg Losf3d3r4135

    Messages:
    7,065
    Likes Received:
    175
    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2002
    An LEO wouldn’t think in terms of gray or generalities. He or she would evaluate directly observable behavior and assess whether there appeared to be an imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury. Finger goes to the trigger when firing. There isn’t a time when you hang out on the trigger. It doesn’t save any time. If the finger is on the trigger, you’re in the process of firing...
     
  8. TheDreadnought

    TheDreadnought

    Messages:
    9,198
    Likes Received:
    17,055
    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2014
    If your finger isn’t on the trigger, what does it matter?

    I feel you’re spending too much time thinking about micro details.

    After a shooting you SHOULD be thinking about how you’re going to interact with the cops, and what to do after they arrest you.

    These are the post-shooting details that matter.
     
    snowbird.40 likes this.
  9. Green Dragoon

    Green Dragoon

    Messages:
    7,641
    Likes Received:
    11,425
    Joined:
    May 31, 2009
    hmm...I'm not sure that's a micro detail. I'm a very strong believer in muscle memory. However, I would assume I'll be pretty jacked-up with adrenaline if I ever have to shoot someone. I'm not going to assume I'll be calm and collected.
     
  10. 5.45 Shooter

    5.45 Shooter

    Messages:
    332
    Likes Received:
    321
    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2009
    If my gun is out of the holster I'm ready to shoot with my finger settled solid on the trigger. I'm not going to wait until he has his gun pointed at me. If his gun starts to move in my direction he's down.
     
    ithaca_deerslayer likes this.
  11. fredj338

    fredj338

    Messages:
    34,476
    Likes Received:
    13,821
    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Location:
    so.cal.
    When I work with my sig, that is exactly how I train. As soon as firing is done, hammer drop. You have to do it to holster, so pretty natural & does not make you any less ready for a continuation of the fight.
     
    Glock Commander likes this.
  12. fredj338

    fredj338

    Messages:
    34,476
    Likes Received:
    13,821
    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Location:
    so.cal.
    About 0.20 sec. Since your reaction time is about 0.20", that is now 0.40 sec. Is that the diff in the fight, maybe, maybe not. If my gun is deployed it is probably going off, the reason I deployed it in the first place. I can see very few scenarios as a ccw where I draw my weapon & just stand there, finger on the trigger ready to shoot. On sights on trigger.
     
  13. Glock Commander

    Glock Commander

    Messages:
    5,223
    Likes Received:
    5,009
    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2015
    Location:
    CA
    If somebody every says to you, "I got something for you!" and goes to their car trunk it is on. (same thing with the glove box) It could have been a fender bender or you took the other person's parking spot.

    Hot heads always think the weapon is the exclamation point. :cop:
     
    ithaca_deerslayer and fredj338 like this.
  14. PhotoFeller

    PhotoFeller A swamp dude

    Messages:
    10,647
    Likes Received:
    10,231
    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2010
    Location:
    SW Florida
    I’ve never been in a situation like this, but I understand the high stress/adrenaline rush sometimes results in involuntary behavior (like grasping the trigger prematurely) that might go against trained behavior. A heavy trigger or an external safety would be a blessing in high-stress encounters.
     
  15. Green Dragoon

    Green Dragoon

    Messages:
    7,641
    Likes Received:
    11,425
    Joined:
    May 31, 2009
    Good point fred...thanks.
     
  16. fredj338

    fredj338

    Messages:
    34,476
    Likes Received:
    13,821
    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Location:
    so.cal.
    If anyone carries a manual safety, they need to train with it extensively, like a lot, more than once a month, like every week. A safety is not a failsafe against a ND, it is just another problem your brain has to negotiate under stress. Train & practice, the safety is off on presentation so isnt keeping you from a ND. If you are waiting to safety off if things escalate, you are probably late to that fight or not in it at all as you will forget 8under stress. I have shot a 1911 for decades. Safety is as natural as pulling the trigger. Even when shooting the glock, my thumb still stabs at the imaginary safety as I draw. You are still off the trigger so no chance of a ND. You dont acquire the trigger until you start pressing out. Same for any pistol btw.
     
    Green Dragoon likes this.
  17. PhotoFeller

    PhotoFeller A swamp dude

    Messages:
    10,647
    Likes Received:
    10,231
    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2010
    Location:
    SW Florida
    Thanks, Fred. I was thinking about a high stress/adrenaline dump face off...a real-life confrontation, which is quite different from a training exercise.

    It seems that if the finger goes to the trigger prematurely because of stress (fear), coming out of the holster or during presentation, a heavy trigger or manual safety might help prevent shooting someone unintentionally. That’s all I was thinking about.
     
  18. ithaca_deerslayer

    ithaca_deerslayer

    Messages:
    32,691
    Likes Received:
    29,546
    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2000
    Location:
    Upstate NY, USA
    If anyone gets the chance, I find it interesting to time 3 shots into an 8" circle from 7 yards, starting from a random buzzer. Looking at the splits and total time.

    You can compare:
    -- from concealed draw, various guns, such as, just for example, Glock, 1911, and Beretta 92. All safeties on. Hand initially not touching gun or clothing.
    -- from low ready, those same 3 guns, all safties on, finger off trigger.
    -- from aiming at target, those same 3 guns, all safeties on, finger off trigger.
    -- from aiming at target, those same 3 guns, all safeties OFF, finger ON trigger.

    The differences may or may not be interesting to you. But I find them interesting for me :)
     
    fredj338 likes this.
  19. fredj338

    fredj338

    Messages:
    34,476
    Likes Received:
    13,821
    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Location:
    so.cal.
    Safety can also get you killed if you dont train enough that its automatic. All these issues are resolved with adequate training & range time. There is no substitute, no easy way, though many think it doesn't matter. Reality, maybe 20% of people carrying guns, ccw or leo, are really capable under stress, and that is all lack of adequate training & even more practice.
     
    PhotoFeller likes this.
  20. fredj338

    fredj338

    Messages:
    34,476
    Likes Received:
    13,821
    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Location:
    so.cal.
    I've done this with students. A manual, safety is exactly the same to first shot if you train & practice with it. The safety is wiped off as you bring the gun up & press out. Number 2, both the same, you disengage safety as you move to the trigger. Number 3, all identical.