Glock Talk banner

FBI penetration standards

2527 7
Hello Mas,

I read your ammo recommendations and nobody can argue with the real world results that you have.

What makes me curious is that on Federal ammunitions website they show gel tests for the highly recommended Speer Gold Dot and HST rounds and some of the results show suboptimal penetration in bare gel.That is less than the 12 inch minimum that is presented.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.
Best,
brair
1 - 8 of 8 Posts

· Premium Member
Joined
·
606 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Thanks aga
Sorry I pushed send too quickly.The Federal website lists the penetration of the 124 Grain GDHP +P at 11.75 inches in bare gelatin.I guess what I am asking is do you think based on your street results asking for a minimum of 12 inch penetration in gel is not necessary.Thanks again for your thoughts.
Best,
brair
 

· KoolAidAntidote
Joined
·
6,113 Posts
Sorry I pushed send too quickly.The Federal website lists the penetration of the 124 Grain GDHP +P at 11.75 inches in bare gelatin.I guess what I am asking is do you think based on your street results asking for a minimum of 12 inch penetration in gel is not necessary.Thanks again for your thoughts.
Best,
brair
The "twelve inch minimum" standard tracks back to the late Dr. Martin Fackler in the latter 1980s. It was somewhat overdone. One writer was known to say that 11.75" was totally unacceptable but 12.25" was perfectly adequate. When someone says half an inch of penetration is the difference between totally unacceptable and perfectly adequate, the BS alert just has to go off. Mistaking general guidelines for laws written in stone is seldom a smart thing.

The 124 grain +P Gold Dot is on the "recommended" list of Dr. Gary Roberts, who most of us see as having inherited Dr. Fackler's mantle as the voice of what might be called "the scientific testing side" of this contentious debate.

The 124 grain Gold Dot +P performed so well for NYPD that decades-long complaints from street cops there and their organization, the PBA, about being issued impotent ammo, pretty much went away. It worked so well for Las Vegas Metro PD, which gets into a good many shootings, that their firearms instructors told me 124 grain +P 9mm Gold Dot worked as well as 180 grain subsonic .40 Gold Dot and 230 grain .45 Gold Dot. Chuck Haggard's department (Topeka, Kansas) had many shootings with 124 grain +P 9mm Gold Dot, and had no horror stories with it, and they had it longer than the 15-16 years NYPD had it.

For me, that collective test data/street experience carries more weight than any "twelve-inch mantra."

Recognizing that everyone's mileage may vary on this topic,
Mas
 

· Premium Member
Joined
·
606 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
The "twelve inch minimum" standard tracks back to the late Dr. Martin Fackler in the latter 1980s. It was somewhat overdone. One writer was known to say that 11.75" was totally unacceptable but 12.25" was perfectly adequate. When someone says half an inch of penetration is the difference between totally unacceptable and perfectly adequate, the BS alert just has to go off. Mistaking general guidelines for laws written in stone is seldom a smart thing.

The 124 grain +P Gold Dot is on the "recommended" list of Dr. Gary Roberts, who most of us see as having inherited Dr. Fackler's mantle as the voice of what might be called "the scientific testing side" of this contentious debate.

The 124 grain Gold Dot +P performed so well for NYPD that decades-long complaints from street cops there and their organization, the PBA, about being issued impotent ammo, pretty much went away. It worked so well for Las Vegas Metro PD, which gets into a good many shootings, that their firearms instructors told me 124 grain +P 9mm Gold Dot worked as well as 180 grain subsonic .40 Gold Dot and 230 grain .45 Gold Dot. Chuck Haggard's department (Topeka, Kansas) had many shootings with 124 grain +P 9mm Gold Dot, and had no horror stories with it, and they had it longer than the 15-16 years NYPD had it.

For me, that collective test data/street experience carries more weight than any "twelve-inch mantra."

Recognizing that everyone's mileage may vary on this topic,
Mas
 

· Premium Member
Joined
·
606 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Hi Mas,
Once again you are the voice of reason.The only reason I mentioned the 12 inch minimum is I have read,perhaps incorrectly,that the FBI minimum is 12 inch and they wont accept a round that achieves less.
Regards,
brair
 

· KoolAidAntidote
Joined
·
6,113 Posts
Hi Mas,
Once again you are the voice of reason.The only reason I mentioned the 12 inch minimum is I have read,perhaps incorrectly,that the FBI minimum is 12 inch and they wont accept a round that achieves less.
Regards,
brair
When an agency sets standards, it has to draw the line somewhere. Individuals have a bit more flex.
best,
Mas
 
1 - 8 of 8 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top