[Mas Ayoob]

In terms of penetration, the Gold Dot and HST loads recommended here at GATE should get you where you need to go.
best,
Mas

 

[brair]

In terms of penetration, the Gold Dot and HST loads recommended here at GATE should get you where you need to go.
best,
Mas

Thanks aga

 

[brair]

Thanks aga

Sorry I pushed send too quickly.The Federal website lists the penetration of the 124 Grain GDHP +P at 11.75 inches in bare gelatin.I guess what I am asking is do you think based on your street results asking for a minimum of 12 inch penetration in gel is not necessary.Thanks again for your thoughts.
Best,
brair

 

[Mas Ayoob]

Sorry I pushed send too quickly.The Federal website lists the penetration of the 124 Grain GDHP +P at 11.75 inches in bare gelatin.I guess what I am asking is do you think based on your street results asking for a minimum of 12 inch penetration in gel is not necessary.Thanks again for your thoughts.
Best,
brair

The "twelve inch minimum" standard tracks back to the late Dr. Martin Fackler in the latter 1980s. It was somewhat overdone. One writer was known to say that 11.75" was totally unacceptable but 12.25" was perfectly adequate. When someone says half an inch of penetration is the difference between totally unacceptable and perfectly adequate, the BS alert just has to go off. Mistaking general guidelines for laws written in stone is seldom a smart thing.

The 124 grain +P Gold Dot is on the "recommended" list of Dr. Gary Roberts, who most of us see as having inherited Dr. Fackler's mantle as the voice of what might be called "the scientific testing side" of this contentious debate.

The 124 grain Gold Dot +P performed so well for NYPD that decades-long complaints from street cops there and their organization, the PBA, about being issued impotent ammo, pretty much went away. It worked so well for Las Vegas Metro PD, which gets into a good many shootings, that their firearms instructors told me 124 grain +P 9mm Gold Dot worked as well as 180 grain subsonic .40 Gold Dot and 230 grain .45 Gold Dot. Chuck Haggard's department (Topeka, Kansas) had many shootings with 124 grain +P 9mm Gold Dot, and had no horror stories with it, and they had it longer than the 15-16 years NYPD had it.

For me, that collective test data/street experience carries more weight than any "twelve-inch mantra."

Recognizing that everyone's mileage may vary on this topic,
Mas

 

[brair]

The "twelve inch minimum" standard tracks back to the late Dr. Martin Fackler in the latter 1980s. It was somewhat overdone. One writer was known to say that 11.75" was totally unacceptable but 12.25" was perfectly adequate. When someone says half an inch of penetration is the difference between totally unacceptable and perfectly adequate, the BS alert just has to go off. Mistaking general guidelines for laws written in stone is seldom a smart thing.

The 124 grain +P Gold Dot is on the "recommended" list of Dr. Gary Roberts, who most of us see as having inherited Dr. Fackler's mantle as the voice of what might be called "the scientific testing side" of this contentious debate.

The 124 grain Gold Dot +P performed so well for NYPD that decades-long complaints from street cops there and their organization, the PBA, about being issued impotent ammo, pretty much went away. It worked so well for Las Vegas Metro PD, which gets into a good many shootings, that their firearms instructors told me 124 grain +P 9mm Gold Dot worked as well as 180 grain subsonic .40 Gold Dot and 230 grain .45 Gold Dot. Chuck Haggard's department (Topeka, Kansas) had many shootings with 124 grain +P 9mm Gold Dot, and had no horror stories with it, and they had it longer than the 15-16 years NYPD had it.

For me, that collective test data/street experience carries more weight than any "twelve-inch mantra."

Recognizing that everyone's mileage may vary on this topic,
Mas

 

[brair]

Hi Mas,
Once again you are the voice of reason.The only reason I mentioned the 12 inch minimum is I have read,perhaps incorrectly,that the FBI minimum is 12 inch and they wont accept a round that achieves less.
Regards,
brair

 

[Mas Ayoob]

Hi Mas,
Once again you are the voice of reason.The only reason I mentioned the 12 inch minimum is I have read,perhaps incorrectly,that the FBI minimum is 12 inch and they wont accept a round that achieves less.
Regards,
brair

When an agency sets standards, it has to draw the line somewhere. Individuals have a bit more flex.
best,
Mas