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Discussion Starter #101
And consider what happens when that high capacity auto jams in a contact fight or just because you had a faulty grip on it. Good luck with that.

The argument is always “these days” so I need a high capacity autoloader. Based on what facts or logic? Outliers? What about the most likely scenarios? It seems logical to me to give them priority.

A snub revolver offers inherent advantages over a Glock 19 and vice versa. Consider what advantages are likely to be of benefit in the context of civilian self-defense. It’s not just a matter of capacity nor is it a training/software issue.

t’s really difficult to keep an autoloader running in a contact scenario. I have yet to see anyone who could do it consistently. It’s even hard to access it in the first place. It doesn’t matter who you are are how well you’re trained. And most people’s training in ECQ doesn’t include any contact at all. There are valid reasons as to why, but thinking you are prepared is akin to thinking you’re ready to step into the ring against a young, tough boxer just because you did some shadow-boxing and bag work.

My view is a snub is at the very least adequate in the vast majority of situations which occur at very close range but in excess of touching. The stats and common sense support that. The outliers would be ranged gunfights/shootouts which are so rare for civilians I would imagine they are about as common being struck by lightning and winning the powerball on the same day. They just don’t happen outside of law enforcement and movies except in exceedingly rare circumstances unless you willingly engage, which I would recommend against.

Close-quarter physical assaults with fists/feet, contact weapons like knives and bludgeons as well as firearms are by comparison relatively common. A snub is a more effective weapon in anyone’s hands in these situations. But, what if there’s multiple attackers? If you can’t keep an autoloader running against one attacker, why in the world would you be better against multiples? I’d rather have a more retainable and be able to get off 5 or 6 shots rather than one or none.

I guess carrying both a high-capacity autoloader AND a snub(which I would actually consider primary) could be considered ideal, but it’s not worth it for most people and I would agree with them.
Good read. However, and there always seem to be a "however", makes you wonder why every law enforcement agency (police, federal, large city and small muni's) carry auto loaders. The military picked up on the 1911 and abandoned the revolver over a hundred years ago (except Patton) and every branch has carried auto loaders exclusively for years. There may be some exceptions along the way. I do know from personal experience that pilots during Viet Nam were issued snubby .38 specials and the one's I served with didn't even bother carrying it when on combat flights over North Vietnam, thinking it would be a joke to try to fend off a bunch of irate folks they just tried to bomb before being shot down, using that space to carry an extra radio with the homing device to aid in hopefully being picked up by a chopper before being killed or captured. In the armed police shootings I was close to but not personally involved, the Sigs and Glocks involved never failed to fire. No limp wrists, jams, failure to feed or any of the other things that can happen with a full auto. Hundreds of rounds from multiple cops firing under stress, and not one problem, unless you call 83% of the rounds fired missing the intended target a problem (humor). So some may elect to carry a snub, but for those who face a munch higher percentage of actually having to use their gun in a lethal situation, autos will still be the weapon of choice. When I was a cop I know I would have felt screwed if everyone was issued a Sig as the duty weapon and I was given a snub nose Smith (which incidentally I have).
 

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Millenium #3936
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5 or 6 reliable shots has not become less important. I am not a huge fan of revolvers but I can admit that they do have some inherent benefits in CQB (over the semi auto).

If a person can accept the rather low capacity, the revolver is a very practical weapon of choice as far as I am concerned.

Capacity is a huge reason that Police moved away from the revolver. I do not disagree with their decision but police have a series of responsibilities and duties that the average joe does not. A gunfight is a gunfight but most citizens are not going to run head long into (or willingly remain) in circumstances where a running gunfight with multiple offenders is likely.

Anything can happen but stats do not lie. According to statistical data, a 5 or 6 shot revolver is considered adequate for the overwhelming majority of citizen self defense actions. Does that mean that things will always unfold within statistical norms?.. of course not. Each person much decide.

I carry a 10 shot semi auto most of the time but I cannot disagree with much of what MisterX has said.

I am not one to simply jump on any bandwagon that is lead by the military or police. I am neither and will make my own decisions regarding self defense. On occasion, I am known to drop a jframe in my front pocket and head out the door. When I do, I do not feel and sense of foreboding in regards to capacity.
 

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Told the Officer his holster was too loose for his K frame!

OK Sarge, will get one payday."

Get it sooner I told him.

Couple nights later I went to a stop he had going and observed him in a Grappling match with the Suspect.

Jammed it park and ran over, kicked the perp in the head tip of my boot.

Perp rolls over with the Officers K frame in his hand.

Detail, Detail!
 

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I really think by Now, we all know that a snub nose is Not a Duty Weapon but a Full Size .357 Revolver Can be and some Police & Troopers do still carry them! Trust me, I'm not trying to make a case for them to carry a Revolver and I have carried a S&W Revolver as my duty weapon a long time ago, without the feeling of being under gunned! Yes, I was thrilled to be able to switch to semi auto and I purchased a Glock 19 with two spare mags whih I carrie as my duty Weapon for my remaining time. My EDC is now a G43 with a 7 round mag and sometime a G48! I still love Revolvers and on occasion, I will grab my S&W 638 and throw it in my pocket, without hesitation because I can!
 

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When the newspapers start listing all the riots, carjackings and armed robberies at least a day or two before they happen, I'll start planning for the average incident.

Until then, I'll try to cover as many bases as I reasonably can.

Larry
 

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Millenium #3936
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The issues that drove police and the military to select semi auto 9mm over revolvers are not the same filters that I use to select a weapon to carry to the grocery. Fewer shots ( 5 or 6) but ultra reliable in darn near every conceivable condition is acceptable for very limited use against very few attackers and at close distance. I would feel different if I were a LEO on patrol or a Soldier in a war zone. Its just not the same universe and I am not sure why people keep bringing up what Police and Soldiers do.

I carry a Browning HP most of the time but its not because of anything police and soldiers do. I carry it simply because I am more proficient with it over my snubby. Still, I carry a snub often.
 

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I've a five round Charter Arms Pitbull in .45ACP that I have and would not hesitate to carry w/o any fear of being under gunned. I can hit what I shoot at and even if 5 don't do it, the perp. ain't gonna have much left to do me in anyway with 4 or 5 rounds of 230 grain gold dots in him!
 

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Millenium #3936
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[
I agree. We should also do more practice shooting one handed, and also with our other strong hand.
One thing I have learned over the years in force on force training is that a less than traditional site picture is very common. Going up against an adversary that moving, you are moving and all heck is breaking loose when you least expect it, there isnt much time or opportunity for some perfect weaver stance and traditional usage of the front and rear sights. Point shooting is a very important skill in my estimation. Sadly, people seem to narrowly focus on a bulls eye mentality.
 

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Sadly, people seem to narrowly focus on a bulls eye mentality.
I suspect that is true. I think it's because most indoor ranges limit the shooting activity to the least common denominator for safety reasons. Probably not a bad idea from the stories I have heard. That doesn't necessarily make this type of practice completely useless if the shooter retains the proper mindset. That is, when I see the balloon go up I'm getting off the X, in a diagonal line, and simultaneously starting to shoot at the POS. We have to have made these decisions before the big event happens, because if we haven't already made the decision, our chance of success decreases.
 

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I suspect that is true. I think it's because most indoor ranges limit the shooting activity to the least common denominator for safety reasons. Probably not a bad idea from the stories I have heard. That doesn't necessarily make this type of practice completely useless if the shooter retains the proper mindset. That is, when I see the balloon go up I'm getting off the X, in a diagonal line, and simultaneously starting to shoot at the POS. We have to have made these decisions before the big event happens, because if we haven't already made the decision, our chance of success decreases.
Very diff under stress to have a proper mindset if you have never trained for it. Why slow fire flat range pra tice doesnt really cut it. I have many students that started shooting that way & once you put them I to dynamic shooting, it all changes.
 
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Some concepts that I have adopted based on over 4 decades of training classes from instructors who have seen the elephant personally along with countless informal and formal tactical competitions:

Getting into a gunfight as a civilian is a statistical anomaly. There is no data that substantiates that law enforcement shooting statistics relate accurately to civilian self defense shootings.
Unlike police officers, civilians don't have back up present or arriving imminently nor in most instances will a civilian be wearing body armor and have ready access to a long gun.
A civilian must plan and train for a fight from the perspective that they are on their own.
Settle on one firearm platform for defense and train with it relentlessly. That will allow muscle memory to take over to effectively run the gun when the stress is overwhelming.
Carry what you train with.
No one knowns what their fight is going to look like.
The fight will require as many rounds it takes to win the fight or lose it.
The very best gunfight is the one that never happens. Situational awareness, tactical movement, voice commands are best used to avoid a fight not win one.
YMMV
 

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You can argue on iron sights vs MOS; caliber, and most effective EDC firearm. Here are some facts to help you decide: In most gunfights average number of rounds fired is 3.59 using a 9mm from an average distance of 3-6 feet as the deadliest distance for police. In a study experts were only 10% more accurate than novices from 3-15'. Thus, most shooters will hit their target when under 6 feet, regardless of ability. If you stand to shoot, your chances of being hit are 85% vs 47% when shooting while moving. During a five year period more police officers assaulted with knives (12.7%) vs firearms (9.3%). Police were, on the average, only 17% effective in shootouts. These studies from Force Science Institute and the Ohio State Police Academy. 34% of the time, simply brandishing your gun ended the fight before shots fired. However, do you want to rely only on statistics? Average 4 rounds, but what about the assailant wielding a knife that took 6 rounds of .357 before being stopped? And how accurate are you beyond 15' under stress? More is probably better than not enough.
You are asking the wrong questions. The statistics include no context. Just saying accuracy at 3 to 15 feet excludes all the variables of movement, cover and distraction.

Here is what you should do. Rig up an IDPA target on two sticks on one of those furniture moving wheeled stands. Add four eyelets to the frame, two for right/left and two for forward/back. Get two 75 foot long ropes and four pulleys on stakes (two per side). Stake them down about 10 yards apart. Run the rope through and have a friend pull the target left and right. Have a friend pull the target left and right. The ground will cause the target to move around as it moves.

Next, load up and shoot one full mag. Start at 10 feet and move while shooting. Track your score. I found that many people only get 10-15% hits the first few times they do this drill.

You can introduce variations, such as placing one piece of each concealment and cover that the shooter must move to. They must shoot at least X times while moving (X is determined by you). This is a good drill because the shooter must decide where to go.

These drills reveal quite a bit about how people shoot at a moving target while moving themselves. The good news is that low scores will improve fairly quickly.
 

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^ This is a great point. 5 or 6 is not that bad if you can absolutely count on them to hit your target. I’m sure if I’m in church and someone walks in with an AR I would prefer more than 5 attempts at 20-40 yards (I realize this is outside the probability of normal civilian shootings). All that said, on duty I used to carry a p220 and never thought twice about capacity.
 

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I have been hearing these arguments for well over 20 years and I have fun reading all the comments being made which I have heard so many times before. Yes, things change as time goes on and I do agree that people have to be aware more than ever before of the increased violence in our society. Having said this, IMO, the most important thing to consider when choosing a gun for carry, is to be totally proficient with your firearm. Training along with practice, practice, practice and more practice is the major factor in any gun fight that will save your life! Just become an expert with what you carry!
 

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I can make all six shots count with my LCR .327. That's much more effective than spray and pray with a 15 round semi.

I'm not a cop or an operator. My EDC is to get me out of trouble, not arrest a group of gang bangers.
 

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You are asking the wrong questions. The statistics include no context. Just saying accuracy at 3 to 15 feet excludes all the variables of movement, cover and distraction.

Here is what you should do. Rig up an IDPA target on two sticks on one of those furniture moving wheeled stands. Add four eyelets to the frame, two for right/left and two for forward/back. Get two 75 foot long ropes and four pulleys on stakes (two per side). Stake them down about 10 yards apart. Run the rope through and have a friend pull the target left and right. Have a friend pull the target left and right. The ground will cause the target to move around as it moves.

Next, load up and shoot one full mag. Start at 10 feet and move while shooting. Track your score. I found that many people only get 10-15% hits the first few times they do this drill.

You can introduce variations, such as placing one piece of each concealment and cover that the shooter must move to. They must shoot at least X times while moving (X is determined by you). This is a good drill because the shooter must decide where to go.

These drills reveal quite a bit about how people shoot at a moving target while moving themselves. The good news is that low scores will improve fairly quickly.
Inside 21ft, most of the people I shoot with will score 90%+ hits on a mover like that, yes while moving.
 

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Inside 21ft, most of the people I shoot with will score 90%+ hits on a mover like that, yes while moving.
That has not been my experience at all. Moving shooter and moving target typically get way lower that those stats in folks I've trained, included LE; unless you're moving and shooting very SLOWLY.

Larry
 
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