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Discussion in 'Tactics and Training' started by sciolist, Feb 15, 2010.

  1. jdwatson

    jdwatson

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    Keep it up, for us newbies trigger control is a perishable skill.
     
  2. fredj338

    fredj338

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    My point exactly. Telling a newb shooter to "isolate your trigger finger for perfect trigger control" & then he pushes his shots low left & you are not going to tell him why? Shooting is a lot like a golf swing, there is mor to it, sorry, JMO, than trigger rpess & align the sights. If it were that easy, no one would need instruction. It could be placed on a 3x5 card & post for all to see. Practical application hsows it is far more involved than simply press & sight alignment for most newb shooters. NM, so how does that teaching style reflect w/ your cadre of students? Are they newbs or experienced shooters learning to go faster or practical shooting skills? Yes it matters. Try that attitude w/ a romm full of newb shooters & get back to me.
     

  3. Gallium

    Gallium CLM

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    Sciolist,

    I am hard pressed to understand how you could be flinching so severely, and still grouping as well at those distances. Are you SURE you don't mean "feet", instead of "yards"?

    A 2.5" group at 15yards is a pretty hard feat if you're flinching like crazy. For MOST shooters, a 2.5" group at 45ft is very good shooting.

    A 2.5" group at 15 feet...well, at 15 ft (versus 15 yards) all of the rounds from slow fire should be making one hole with proper technique.

    I can barely see a 1/2 gallon juice jug at 50 yards.

    'Drew
    :cool:
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2010
  4. sciolist

    sciolist On the Border

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    Yes, I know the difference between feet and yards. As an architect and climber of many years, let's just say I would not be here to post this, had I been confused on that count.
    <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:eek:ffice" /><o:p></o:p>
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    As I said, we don't have indoor ranges here, we shoot outdoors. I set my target stand up, pace off 10/20/30/40/50/60 yard lines, and just drag my heel in the dirt. Your initial skeptical tone prompted me to take the rolotape and chalk out and check my pace. I paced off 100 yards in 10 yard increments, and was about 1 foot strong on each increment. So my 20 yard line is probably about 62 feet and my 60 yard line is around 186 feet.
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    ‘Drew, I didn’t start this thread to boast, I started it to get some pointers, and to engage in what I think is an interesting discussion. Don’t really have an effective means of supplying evidence of my shooting… seems like that would be pointless anyway, without firsthand verification. Based on some of the targets I’ve seen posted on here, my shooting sucks anyway.
    <o:p></o:p>
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    Yes, I can definitely shoot small 2.5” groupings at 15 yards. My juice cans are the 46oz variety, like V8 comes in. They are about 4-3/16” x 7”. I just stick them up on the top rail of my target stand like this:

    [​IMG]

    At 30 yards I can pop 4 cans off the top pretty consistently with 4 rounds. At 50 yards I use only 2 cans, to avoid hitting one next to the one I’m aiming at. At that range, I sometimes hit the can on the first shot, more often in 5, and sometimes it takes more than 5 shots. Got a few at 60 yards yesterday, as stated. I think my best was a hit in 3 shots, and one of them took me 9 or 10.
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    Maybe the missing piece of the puzzle is consistency. I am not claiming to be able to put 15 rounds in a 2.5” grouping at 15 yards. More like 3 or 4. The first shot might be nearly dead-nuts on, then the next two maybe within 2.5” or 3”, then I’ll zing one way out at maybe 6”, then start working back toward center. So there are plenty of flyers, especially when I get out past 20 yards. That’s why I like the cans for longer shots. You don’t really know where you’re hitting the can – just if you hit or miss.<o:p></o:p>
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    Of course a 4” can appears smaller than my stock front sight at 60 yards. Have you not seen hickok45’s 230 yard video? That makes 60 yards look point-blank.<o:p></o:p>
     
  5. sciolist

    sciolist On the Border

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    I had not realized that 'both eyes open' was the proper technique, so went out to experiment with that yesterday. I am right handed and right eye dominant. Did some dry firing/pointing at home first, to get the visual fixation down. This technique is a little spooky at first, but it generally centered my groupings up on the target, which was very exciting.

    Was also working on the flinching. I started off with D/B drills where I did not know the locations of the dummies. When I flinched, would dry fire that round a few times before moving on.

    In terms of actually correcting the flinching, loading mags up with 3 live/1 dummy/3 live/1 dummy, etc., and just working through that seems to help. You know when the dummy is coming, and can make a conscious effort not to flinch. The blind D/B's are a great diagnostic tool, but I don't think they do much on the remedial level.

    Will also try doubling up on the ears. Are there any other good ways to work on stopping the flinching? It seems to be intermittent with me... about half the time I don't do it, then sometimes I'll do it lightly, and every so often it's as though I'm trying to throw the gun in the dirt. Not really sure why that is.

    Some pics:

    Nice grouping from 15 yards:

    [​IMG]

    Target from 10 yard line:

    [​IMG]

    Target from 50 yard line:

    [​IMG]

    The distance photos are a little deceptive, but at least the proportional relationship is there. In the 50-yard photo, the 40 yard line (heel drag) can be seen in the foreground. The 20 yard line is near the wide juniper on the left.
     
  6. Gallium

    Gallium CLM

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    Where would I start? :)



    1. At 45ft, a 2.5" group is far better than decent, way better than average.

    2. There is no skepticism in my response, except to tell you that if you are shooting a 2.5" group at 45ft consistently, you are not flinching, because flinching is going to exaggerate your group at that distance in a bad, major, ugly way. It is virtually impossible for you to flinch at trigger break, with a "generic" handgun at that distance, and produce consistent 2.5" groups.

    3. I have seen Hickok45's videos, and if he was to respond to your post, he would say that you cannot possibly be flinching at 45ft @ trigger break, and produce a 2.5" group. :)

    Having said all that, I read your post above (sorry for the part I cut out!), and your post after that. You are shooting fine. The most effective way to improve your performance will be to work with a solid, aggressive shooting coach (someone who will push you when needed, in the right ways to better your performance).

    I did not think you were boasting, nor was I skeptical. I merely questioned you on the distance because from a 2 handed, or 1 handed unsupported shooting position, you cannot produce those (2.5" groups) results if flinching is happening. Draw on your background as an architect, and think of all the scenarios that cannot work from an engineering perspective.


    I will concur (re-reading your most recent post) that it's flinching that's causing the flyers. :supergrin: How do you minimize flinching? Flinching is an indication that you are not concentrating enough on your sight picture. Virtually 99.9% of your body's conscious concentration should be focused on the front sight. If you are flinching, there is some part of your brain telling another part of your brain the trigger is about to break. This should not be happening.

    See this post, in General Glocking.


    'Drew


    https://glocktalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14774873&postcount=11
     
  7. sciolist

    sciolist On the Border

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    Thanks, 'Drew.

    I think the flinching is intermittent. That would explain why my initial shots are often the most accurate, and also explains the flyers.
     
  8. killa beez

    killa beez

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    I was struggling with crappy trigger control. Then I tried this.... I picture a straight line from where my finger is on the trigger directly to the back of the grip. This way im directing the trigger towards something rather than just pulling it back. Kinda is becoming second nature and imagining that line also somehow seems to help with my flash sighting acquisition.

    I dunno, im a lil unorthodox and my mind works in wierd ways but all I know is my groupings are getting smaller and smaller the more I practice now. Hopefully it helps you or someone else struggling.
     
  9. dosei

    dosei

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    From another thread discussing the same problem:

    Jeff Cooper, talking about the surprise break & front sight.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hIAqU7hKBw
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2010
  10. PhoneCop

    PhoneCop TeleDetective

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    I think NMGlocker is more on target.

    I've found it more productive to make it simple, sight allignment and sight picture, now press the trigger smoothly disturbing the sight picture as little as possible.

    The instructor takes onthe roll of looking at the groups and the shooting and spots errors. That which he spots he addresses.

    This process has worked rather well and getting students to print respectable groups. Quickly they can spot when they did something wrong. Often they say it felt different when the shot strays. I explore and explain why what happened manifested and get them back focused on the simple- proper sight picture, proper trigger control.
     
  11. sciolist

    sciolist On the Border

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    One thing I've started doing when I dry fire, is to do a few repetitions observing my trigger technique from above. I sit in a chair in front of my work desk, which has about a 1" thick top. I adjust the height of the chair so that I can hold the gun at a sort of "low ready", without getting any additional support from my lap. Then I roll forward until the barrel of the gun is almost touching the edge of the desk. This gives a very precise visual index. Then it's easy to watch what's going on with the gun and my hands as I dry fire. Easy to see if any skew motion is being imparted by my trigger finger, experiment with relative pressure between hands, etc. Kind of a birds-eye view.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:eek:ffice" /><o:p></o:p>
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    After a few rep’s like that, with as close as possible to zero delta, I do some dry fires from my normal shooting position, with the target at 5-10 yards. The idea is to get the biomechanics dialed in, and then add the visual fixation part.<o:p></o:p>
     
  12. NMGlocker

    NMGlocker BOOM headshot

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    Psychology 101 and how it applies to teaching:
    Why do I have the student focus on proper sight alignment and proper trigger press and not go into diagnostic detail on what they're doing wrong?
    Because the human brain does not work in "negatives".
    Example:
    If I tell you to picture a gorilla in your mind, what do you get a mental picture of?
    A gorilla.
    If I tell you, do NOT picture a gorilla in your mind, what do you get a mental picture of?
    A gorilla.
    It's the same thing with instructing.
    If I tell a student "Don't jerk the trigger." The mental picture the student gets is... jerking the trigger.
    The human brain is also geared to use visualization as a learning technique.
    Now, the student is visualizing (learning) to jerk the the trigger, because you the instructor were telling him to "NOT jerk the trigger", but the brain does not compute the "not".
    To be an effective instructor you need to know the psychology of learning, not just the mechanics of the subject.
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2010