[ABNAK]

They have a 125gr Sierra load at 1450fps (4" barrel) and a Winchester 147gr JHP bullet at 1250fps (4" barrel).

Couple of questions: First off, I recall a number of threads here about DT's velocities not being quite what they advertise. Has this been rectified?

Secondly, *if* the velocities are as stated, the 125gr Sierra loading should be devastating. What about the 147gr Winchester HP? Are they known for good expansion?

 

[unit1069]

Couple of questions: First off, I recall a number of threads here about DT's velocities not being quite what they advertise. Has this been rectified?

I can't say for sure if Double Tap doesn't live up to velocity billings because I don't have a chronometer, but those who have tested this ammo in the not-too-distant past say their results fall far short of what the company claims for velocity.

I bought some DT .357sig ammo in 2007 in both 125- and 147-grain when the company was loading Gold Dot bullets. From the information Glolt20-70 posted I learned that the bullets were 9mm and not designed for .357sig and from what I could tell shooting both varieties the recoil seems the same as all the 1325-1375 fps factory ammo I've shot.

I recently began carrying the Double Tap 147-grain Gold Dot ammo because I like the relatively mild recoil compared to 125-grain; and my thinking is if 147-grain JHP in 9mm is supposed to be the "best of the best" self-defense ammo for that caliber the same bullet running 1200-1250 fps ought to be a real barn burner for personal protection.

I recently conducted my first (and so far only) backyard ammo test using 2-litre Pepsi bottles. Here is a photo of the Gold Dots: the top three are 1300 fps Gold Dots loaded in Bitterroot Valley Ammunition's 125-grain .357sig and listed at 1300 fps and the bottom is the Double Tap 147-grain Gold Dot listed at 1250 fps. The Bitterroot bullet is the same as Speer loads in their 54234 ammo.

All four bullets penetrated into the third Pepsi bottle where they were recovered but I can't tell you if that translates into effective penetration because I'm new to all this. All the bullets mushroomed to my satisfaction.

One of the things I've learned from other GT members like Bob is that the best choice for defensive ammo includes those rounds that satisfy the bullet's design window for velocity. Driving a bullet beyond it's design window defeats that design.

 

[dkf]

I'd suspect the Sierra will see fragmentation and probably actually chrono in the mid 1300s out of a 4" barrel. The 147 gr. may fragment a little but nothing major and probably will chrono in the high 1100s out of a 4" barrel. Honestly I would rather carry a factory 125gr like the GB, GSB, HST or XTP than any DT rounds. For 147gr I would rather use Hornadys custom or nickel cased TAP in 147gr. The 147gr. XTP will stay together fine in the 1200fps range, get very good penetration and have reliable expansion. I'd bet the buffalo bore or corbon .357sig loads will have more heat to them than the DT.

 

[ABNAK]

I'd suspect the Sierra will see fragmentation and probably actually chrono in the mid 1300s out of a 4" barrel. The 147 gr. may fragment a little but nothing major and probably will chrono in the high 1100s out of a 4" barrel. Honestly I would rather carry a factory 125gr like the GB, GSB, HST or XTP than any DT rounds. For 147gr I would rather use Hornadys custom or nickel cased TAP in 147gr. The 147gr. XTP will stay together fine in the 1200fps range, get very good penetration and have reliable expansion. I'd bet the buffalo bore or corbon .357sig loads will have more heat to them than the DT.

I have chrono'd the Cor Bon 125gr (Sierra JHP) and the Buffalo Bore 125gr (Gold Dot) from a Glock 23 with a 4" Storm Lake drop-in barrel. The CB's did ~ 1400fps and the BB's did ~ 1500fps!

I figured that with a standard cup-and-core bullet design like the Winchester bullet that you'd get a little fragmentation and whatever benefits you derive from that as well as a significant "stem" left to penetrate decently. Best of both worlds and schools of thought?

BTW, I looked this morning and Buffalo Bore doesn't advertise a 147gr load anymore for 357Sig. Don't *think* Cor Bon does either.

 

[dkf]

How old were the double tap rounds you chronoed? I know BB and Corbon don't have any current 147gr offerings. I just have more faith in the XTP 147gr. I've been hearing swamp fox was planning to get into .357sig but havn't seen anything. I don't know how much "factory" ammo is in my future once I get started reloading.

 

[ABNAK]

How old were the double tap rounds you chronoed? I know BB and Corbon don't have any current 147gr offerings. I just have more faith in the XTP 147gr. I've been hearing swamp fox was planning to get into .357sig but havn't seen anything. I don't know how much "factory" ammo is in my future once I get started reloading.

I chrono'd the BB and CB loads, NOT the Double Tap.

 

[dkf]

I chrono'd the BB and CB loads, NOT the Double Tap.

Doh, my bad.

 

[unit1069]

I figured that with a standard cup-and-core bullet design like the Winchester bullet that you'd get a little fragmentation and whatever benefits you derive from that as well as a significant "stem" left to penetrate decently. Best of both worlds and schools of thought?

I would hope that this issue is clear because I've read conflicting posts.

The original .357 Magnum round fragmented and inflicted significant stopping power but with advances in bullet technology even this round has been improved.

What I've read is that bullet integrity is preferable to fragmentation and in both .357 Magnum and .357sig the optimum round will retain core/jacket integrity without fragmentation.

We need some experts to weigh in here as this is a point that needs clarification.

 

[ABNAK]

I would hope that this issue is clear because I've read conflicting posts.

The original .357 Magnum round fragmented and inflicted significant stopping power but with advances in bullet technology even this round has been improved.

What I've read is that bullet integrity is preferable to fragmentation and in both .357 Magnum and .357sig the optimum round will retain core/jacket integrity without fragmentation.

We need some experts to weigh in here as this is a point that needs clarification.

Fragmentation causes seperate wound paths, albeit with each having somewhat limited penetration on their own.

Heck, most 5.56mm ammo relies on fragmentation as it's primary wounding mechanism. Granted, we're talking about velocities approaching 3000fps but still.....

I think expansion throwing off a few fragments to cause more wound channels but still retaining enough of a "core" (if you will) to have adequate penetration might be an ideal situation. That is why I asked about the 147gr Double Tap load. *If* the velocities are as advertised then it might make the above specs.

 

[PghJim]

I get almost 1,500fps out of a 4.5 inch barrel with the DT 125gr load. In my testing, they will expand after going through heavy clothing. Other than that they fragment with about 80 grains penetrating through three water jugs. The effect on the water jugs is just amazing. I did a side by side test with the DT load and a Remington 125 gr SJHP 357 magnum fired from a 6" barrel. The performance was almost exactly the same with fragmentation and remaining pentration. I posted on it at the time. If they act just like that 357 magnum round, they are good enough for me.

 

[Tiro Fijo]

I shot some DT .357 Mag. using the Gold Dot 125 gr. in my S&W Model 13 3" HB and they were brutal to say the least and VERY accurate. They recoiled & "barked" more than my usual Fed. 125 Mag. HP's. That's subjective of course but I am positive they were going over 1300 fps easily in the 3" barrel based on other loads I have chronographed before in this gun.

FWIW, I have some DT .357 loaded with the Barnes solid copper 110 gr. HP's that border on S&M when shot!! :shocked: One day I will chrono a few. They are a handful to say the least.

 

[cowboywannabe]

supposibly the good DT ammo was packaged in black boxes some time ago and the new white box DT is the slower stuff that still advertized as fast.

 

[PghJim]

I would hope that this issue is clear because I've read conflicting posts.

The original .357 Magnum round fragmented and inflicted significant stopping power but with advances in bullet technology even this round has been improved.

What I've read is that bullet integrity is preferable to fragmentation and in both .357 Magnum and .357sig the optimum round will retain core/jacket integrity without fragmentation.

We need some experts to weigh in here as this is a point that needs clarification.

Boy that is the question I have been wondering about. The DT 357 SIG round does act almost exactly like the Rem. 125 SJHP 357 magnum round, which as you point out, fragments and a section of about 66% of the weight will travel about 11 inches in ballistic gel. Is that DT round better than the HST rounds I have at over 1400 fps that do not fragment any and only penetrate a little more. From an energy standpoint, nothing matches the effect on a water jug of the DT 357 sig round except hot 10mm, but does that matter?

 

[ABNAK]

Boy that is the question I have been wondering about. The DT 357 SIG round does act almost exactly like the Rem. 125 SJHP 357 magnum round, which as you point out, fragments and a section of about 66% of the weight will travel about 11 inches in ballistic gel. Is that DT round better than the HST rounds I have at over 1400 fps that do not fragment any and only penetrate a little more. From an energy standpoint, nothing matches the effect on a water jug of the DT 357 sig round except hot 10mm, but does that matter?

Depends on who you ask. There is a debate that has raged for years about this subject. You can't deny that what I bolded in your statement was how the vaunted .357 magnum worked though, so there must be some validity to that particular theory.

I think for fragments to cause any contributory damage they have to be flung off at "high" velocities and in big enough pieces, at least "high" as far as handgun ammunition is concerned. The 1400+fps range seems to suffice. Those velocities also tend to generate impressive stretch/temporary cavities and lend some credence to the whole hydrostatic shock school of thought also.

I think that modern bullet designs allowing for excellent, consistent expansion (like the HST's) at nominal velocities and leaving the bullet intact is great. It covers the "expansion and penetration" end of things nicely. However, I still think there is a valid reason why the .357 Magnum 125gr SJHP load earned it's reputation.

 

[PghJim]

For me, I have DT 125 gr Sierra's that go 1,500 fps and act exactly like the 125 gr SJHP 125 gr 357 magnum. I also have 125 gr HST's that stay together with no fragmenting and go 1,410 fps. Which one should I go with. At least I saw with my own eyes that the DT performed like the 357 magnum and we know that the 357 magnum was a very good round. But then why am I carrying the HST's. Must be the nickel cases.

 

[ABNAK]

For me, I have DT 125 gr Sierra's that go 1,500 fps and act exactly like the 125 gr SJHP 125 gr 357 magnum. I also have 125 gr HST's that stay together with no fragmenting and go 1,410 fps. Which one should I go with. At least I saw with my own eyes that the DT performed like the 357 magnum and we know that the 357 magnum was a very good round. But then why am I carrying the HST's. Must be the nickel cases.

I believe the 357Sig was originally designed to mimic the .357 Magnum. Therefore I'd go with the 125gr Sierra DT load. I have Cor Bon loaded Sierras that do ~ 1400fps from my Glock 19 and it's 4" barrel.

The only reason I see to use a "bonded"-type bullet in 357Sig is for penetration (meat as well as after barriers) and perhaps the temporary cavity (if you believe in that).

Now, "bonded"-type bullets in other calibers that don't generate those 1400+fps velocities like 9mm, .40, and .45 are good to go.

Clarification: by "bonded"-type bullets I don't necessarily mean those specifically labeled as such on the box. I mean those designed to hold together like Gold Dots, HST, Rangers, etc.

 

[clarkstoncz]

A poster on another board commemted that the DT 125 is designed to mimic the
performance of the (fragmenting) 125 grain .357 Magnum load.

I think that these days the bonded bullets like Gold Dots have a lot to offer, but most CCW holders won't be shooting thruough car bodies or have the need for tactical penetration like a state trooper or other leo.

In alt least one recent shooting, the identical Sierra JHP in Cor-Bon form was able to
punch through bullet proof glass or some sort of divider and engage a bad guy with one shot that delivered an instant stop ( or so I've read) where the guy was only able to
travel a few steps, and not return any fire.

That seems like classic 357 Magnum performance, and what others have experienced
over the years from Texas to Maine with the .357 SIG as well.

I'm new to the 357 auto game, but like what I see and hear, along with experience at the range.

As a long time 10mm fan and owner of some 15 years, I know the G29SF isn't going to be as small and light as the Glock 33 on my ankle right now.

Of course, if a person decides to skip the tradtional 125 grain like the excellent
SPEER loads.

And go to a lighter bullet like the 115 gr. DPX or another load that features the
Barnes X design. You get a solid copper JHP that is both deep driving and
expands most every time.

100% weight retention and adequate tactical penetration- according to most testing.

The DPX 9mm (and other calibers as well) has a growing fan base of which some users have already seen it proven it on the streets.

 

[PghJim]

100% weight retention and adequate tactical penetration- according to most testing.

The DPX 9mm (and other calibers as well) has a growing fan base of which some users have already seen it proven it on the streets.

Where have you seen street results. I asked Mas yesterday and he was only aware of one shooting, and that was with a 40 S&W with two shots to the chest and was fatal. However, that is all he knows of. I have thought of using Barnes bulleted rounds, but cannot find any real data of their effectiveness

 

[Tiro Fijo]

Where have you seen street results. I asked Mas yesterday and he was only aware of one shooting, and that was with a 40 S&W with two shots to the chest and was fatal. However, that is all he knows of. I have thought of using Barnes bulleted rounds, but cannot find any real data of their effectiveness

I know of five. All DRT. One you have mentioned. The other was with a .45 ACP cross thorax, total penetration & took out the heart. The others I know not of details.

 

[PghJim]

100% weight retention and adequate tactical penetration- according to most testing.

The DPX 9mm (and other calibers as well) has a growing fan base of which some users have already seen it proven it on the streets.

I saw a Utube video yesterday of a guy shooting this bullet through denim into packed water jugs. The penetration was good and the expansion to almost 0.75". It was the most expansion I have seen out of a 9mm.