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Don't you hate it when this happens?

Discussion in 'Band of Glockers' started by Punisher_nbi45, Feb 5, 2005.

  1. Punisher_nbi45

    Punisher_nbi45 R we der yet?

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    Bob Hunter. www.huntercustoms.com said:

    As a custom builder I've built guns using most factory guns as a base gun. There is a few that has not been mentioned. Para-Ordnance for a double stack. For a single stack I've also used Norinco the steel in these guns is very good. If you want a double stack built from the frame up Caspian or STI would be a good choice. For a single stack built from the frame up which in my opinion is a true custom I prefer Caspian.
    Regards,Bob Hunter. www.huntercustoms.com

    Larry Vickers replied:

    Bob - I must disagree. Para Ordnance pistols are junk. Period. Trust me on this one - I know what I'm talking about. No big name, serious pistolsmith will touch them. And the only competitor that will shoot them is getting paid to(Jarrett). As for Norinco - they may be fine but why would ANYONE buy a cheap 1911 made in China and then spend big bucks to customize it!?! As for me, I won't touch either gun.

    Trust me on this one - I know what I'm talking about.

    Originally posted by Shooter Ed:
    Of my Colts, Springfields and Paras all are full custom or semi custom and all are rock solid reliable. If I had to choose just one 1911 in a serious time of need I would choose one of my Paras.

    I have shot with you on a few occasions 5 or 6 years ago and recall you finishing in the top 10 one year at Limited Nationals. What type of gun did you shoot then and what kind of gun, single stack and hicap do you shoot now.

    Thanks, Ed.

    [This message has been edited by Shooter Ed (edited 01-28-2001).]

    Another Larry Vickers quote:
    Ed - The Para has major problems that won't be fixed without a major investment by the company in redesign efforts and improvement in the overall quality of the gun. In short-it's not going to happen. When you work in the arena I do you can't take any chances and the Para has shown itself on countless occasions to not be a serious fighting handgun.
    I placed in the top 10 2 years in a row (93 and 94) at the limited nationals. The pistol I shot was a Para frame with all after market parts. I put more time and effort into that gun than any Para ever built - It was not only the nicest Para I,ve ever seen but the best shooting - but in the end I gave up because I realized it would never be truly up to snuff.
    I don't shoot IPSC anymore, only IDPA, with a single stack. I've got two Wilson built SVI's in .45 for fat guns that shoot great but I hardly ever shoot them. As a Warrior at heart I have to know that a firearm is at least a marginally servicable fighting gun ( hunting guns not with standing) or I won't really have a warm fuzzy about it - and I know that all the 1911 style fat guns are not.

    ;z
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    I've just lost my faith in Larry Vickers and all those who put Para down. I know this is not really a Para-oriented site but I'd like to thank all the people who give us an opportunity to talk about our favorite guns.

    To be honest, I don't know Larry Vickers personally and, as of now, I'm not sure he's good at what he does. Granted that he's been a Green Beret and in Spec Ops and what not, but just because he can't make a Para run good or it takes him such a long time to do so doesn't mean he has to knock off the entire brand. What he has to say about other gunsmiths isn't professional, either. As far as I know, he is not God's gift to pistolsmithing or the 1911, and I can really care less about his credentials. He and the other gunsmiths who refuse to work on Paras just because of this or that reason are no better than the people who sell junk items. If he really lived up to his creedo, then he should know that no firearm is perfect and that we are the ones who are expected to work around those limitations, not the other way around. People think that just because of his rep, he can do or say whatever he wants.

    Well, it seems to me that if anybody is on the payroll, it's Vickers cause he only works on Springfields. Or maybe it's because he can't really work on anything else. I just think that Larry Vickers (or anyone else for that matter) shouldn't push their opinions on everyone else and make it appear that those people who do not agree with them are incompetent or unknowing and then bash them to heck. To each his own, right?

    I'm disappointed in you, Larry, et. al.!

    :soap: ;z
     
  2. toxic

    toxic

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    maybe he is or will be endorsing another brand of pistola...business business ..business..(ok i remember now ...in his case S.armory)
    For me ..whatever the pistol brand either made from china, croatia,u.s., canada Austria , germany or even danao..as long as it works and serves its intended purpose..ok na yon sa kin..

    i believe there is no such thing as the "PISTOL" 100% reliable..nasa gumagamit at nasa reputable..knowlegeable smiths ang buhay..most gun manufacturers compared to car manufacturer have their deep deep secrets to keep their business alive ...going back to paras its been in the market for as long as i can remember kundi nga lang malake ang grip for my small hands eh pagiipunan ko din yan..

    Di lang siguro makuha ni vikers kung pano katikutin ang PARA.
    compared to a mechanic siguro pang diesel si Vickers and paras are de gasolina..
     

  3. Punisher_nbi45

    Punisher_nbi45 R we der yet?

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    Alam mo, bro, noong una ay bilib talaga ako sa kanya. Dati rin ako sa US Marines kaya I know kung ano hirap na pinagdaanan nya. Kaso, iba na ito. Hindi na tama o professional yung paninira at paninita nya sa produkto. Pati kapwa nya gunsmith na may magandang experience, pinipilit pa rin niya na mali.

    Ang sa akin lang naman, gusto ko malaman ng lahat ito para makuha nila lahat ng available information and they could make their own informed decisions.

    Kaso, dun sa ibang forum (P____lsmith.Com) na ipinag-post ko nito, sympre, kinampihan pa si LV (diba dapat LBM na sya) dahil lang sa teknikalidad, kahit na kapwa na nila pistolsmith ang binira niya. Parang nangyari, porke ba magaling lang daw gumawa ng baril si LV at Green Beret sya, sya lang ang may karapatan sabihin kung ano ang pwede at tama sa atin. Kahit mali, siya pa rin ang masusunod.
    ;z

    Nakakababa ng panananaw yung ginagawa nya.

    :soap:

    Kung magaling talaga siya, tulad ng mga Pinoy gunsmiths, mapapatakbo nya yan! Iba talaga ang Pinoy, basta kaya, nahahanapan ng paraan. Ang iba, porke hindi nila mapaandar, wala na ito kuwenta. And to think MAGALING DAW sya!!!:joker: ;n ^b `s

    NAKAKABILIB PA RIN ANG PINOY!!!! YEEBAAA!!!!
     
  4. FAlvar

    FAlvar I love Iya

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    Wow, he went out and called Paras junk? He must really hate them.
     
  5. 9MX

    9MX Rei!

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    yeah, i've read all about that para junk thing etc. etc. to each his own i guess.

    so here is my take. if i'm to build a 2011 (aka doublestack), it would be on an armscor platform (or norinco if they have .40 hi-cap frame, but they don't;g ). i will replaced same parts that Mcoliver replaced (but i won't make kalikot!;f ).

    why?

    1. For a civilian like me, a .40 2011 will always be a game gun
    2. Mcoliver's pistol has proven (2x recently) it can beat the S_I/S 2011s. It was never the gun after all...its the COFs (joke Mco! Peace;a )
    3. I think its fun to customize reasonably priced 2011 platforms.

    But again, to each his own. I respect that :cool:
     
  6. jasonub

    jasonub

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    Vickers is one hell of a pistolsmith.

    the reason he and other smiths in the US hates paras is because it takes a lot of items to be replaced for it to last and be better for our sport. smithing in the usa is very expensive compared to what it costs here. thus when you finish replacing parts and having it smithed, the para will cost more than the s_i.

    further in the phils i have seen para frames crack. 4 to be exact. all of it were chromed, maybe its due to chroming im not sure. i have seen 2 armscor frames crack too at the same place where the para cracked. In fact one of those frames was mine. it cracked at about 15000 rounds.

    I like paras but these are very expensive in our country. with that money ill wait till someone sells their second hand sti/svi and then buy it.

    btw, mCO's slide has cracked too:( . too much kalikot?;f
     
  7. 9MX

    9MX Rei!

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    most probably;f

    he can easily replace it with another armscor slide right? i guess its less critical when you're pistol is primarily a game gun and you have another for carry/defense;)
     
  8. bulm540

    bulm540

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    Ya , DAwson works on Paras and TJ uses a Para. nuff said.
     
  9. 345

    345

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    My first limited gun is regular off the shelf P14.45 (I bought it 1994) and I use it for almost 2 years. Flawless. The reason I moved to STI Edge 40 is the deal I got that i cannot pass for an almost brand new gun. I still keep my P14 and it still shoots good if i do my part.
    I heard all those things about the Para but up to now the people using any variant of Para I met complain only about a minor problem. Most of them complain about trigger feel of series 80 mech. but after converting it to series 70 trigger problem is solved.
    To me, a real gunsmith is not SELECTIVE.
     
  10. mc_oliver

    mc_oliver

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    HEH!;f Yep, an armscor slide costs less than 5K. ;)

    It's a hairline crack in the upper part of the ejection port. It started in a moulding line(?) in an area na 'di naman stress portion. To give credit where it's due, I'm surprised this slide lasted this long. Already close to 11K of full power loads with a light spring and this ting still keeps ticking.

    I've been wanting for this one to break para magka-rason na bumili ng STI slide. Kaso ayaw pa rin. ;f
     
  11. 9MX

    9MX Rei!

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    if you were surprised with the performance of the armscor slide? why get an sti? what's the value addition?

    aside from aesthetics of course, eh kaya naman yun ng smiths natin ;)
     
  12. mc_oliver

    mc_oliver

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    Mas makapal yung bakal. I don't have to think too much kung saan ko pabubutasan or kung ano'ng parte ipapa-mill. ;)
     
  13. jasonub

    jasonub

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    oh yeah i forgot to write that i only retained the armscor frame. everything was replaced. sti slide barsto barrel, sti/sv/edbrown parts para mags etc etc. the pistol lasted for 15k and i sold it dueto the stress its was causing me.

    cant sleep with a broken frame.

    my sv now has an exact round count of 17350 rounds of major ammo. 11-12 pound recoil spring and a 15 pound hammer spring.so far no problems except for a bomar and hammer. the bomar was a moving and the hammer broke. both due to a fall to a marble floor;g

    The smiths in the states are spoiled. they get to work on oversized parts and hate clamping and hammering slides and frames to fit properly. they just want their cnc machines to cut the tolerances needed and fit the parts;g

    here our smiths still love using the hammer and the bench vice and the file;f
     
  14. toxic

    toxic

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    there you have it ..mas may tsaga lang talaga ang local smiths natin.