Do you have any obligation to use it to "defend" anyone else?-ANSWER

Discussion in 'Carry Issues' started by Davidkxx, Mar 12, 2010.

  1. Davidkxx

    Davidkxx Armed Response

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    I saw the "You carry, do you have any obligation to use it to "defend" anyone else?" thread and wanted to answer it in a new thread with a link to my magazine article as it is too important an issue to get lost in the multi page thread.

    You MAY defend a third party as long as the same elements of Ability, Opportunity and Jeopardy are present against the 3rd party, however, there is no legal requirement to do so.

    Protecting a 3rd party, has all the same risks as protecting yourself;
    1- you may get killed
    2- you may get wounded
    3- right or wrong, you may get prosecuted
    4- win or lose, it may cost you $100,000 or more for defense
    5- right or wrong , you may get sued also
    6- win or lose, it may cost you upwards of another $40,000 for defense
    5- a combination of the above

    The following article is well worth the read and has gotten more response than any other article I have written

    http://www.armedresponsetraining.com/articles/Heroic_consequences.pdf

    There are also several more articles on my website
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2010
  2. Eagle22

    Eagle22

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    Depends on you states Castle Doctrine laws.
     

  3. Glockin26

    Glockin26

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    Great article. Today i added one more step in my routine. Strapping on my G26 and its important to think of the whole situation as well as the consequences. As for the morality. That would depend on the situation entirely. If i see some women getting raped im going to do everything i can to stop the guy. If it two guys fist fighting i will keep walking. If i see a young child getting hit repeatedly by an adult you damn right im gonna step in. All these situations will always accompany a call to 911. Sometimes two minuets to wait for police is longer than the victim has.
     
  4. Davidkxx

    Davidkxx Armed Response

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    Eagle 22,

    - How does your potential death or injury depend on your state's castle law?

    -What if you get prosecuted and/or sued anyways and have to spend money trying to prove you were covered under the states' castle law's?

    -What if you are in a location not covered by your state's castle laws?
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2010
  5. Davidkxx

    Davidkxx Armed Response

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    Glockin 26,

    Defending a third party is fine as long as you know the entire circumstances of the altercation (to know who the real attacker is), AOJ is present and you understand the potential consequences.

    "If i see a young child getting hit repeatedly by an adult you damn right im gonna step in." Unless there is a threat of grave bodily harm or death and AOJ is present, lethal force would NOT be justified.
     
  6. Jim S.

    Jim S.

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    You have to differentiate stepping in and pulling a gun and shooting someone.
    I would always try to diffuse the situation if possible. Knowing I have a gun if needed.
    Trying to help someone could be as simple as yelling out to catch someone's attention or making them stop what they are doing at least for a moment.
    Once they realize you are there to either stop something or help someone then the next move is up to them.
    Perhaps they turn on you. Perhaps they stop for a moment, ignore you, and continue doing whatever it is that made you get involved.
    Next move is up to you and the level of involvement will be dictated by the level of threat.
     
  7. Davidkxx

    Davidkxx Armed Response

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    Agreed!
     
  8. Chad Landry

    Chad Landry Cajunator® CLM

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    I always learn something from your posts, articles, and videos.

    Thanks for posting this.

    :cheers:
     
  9. Gunnut 45/454

    Gunnut 45/454

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    Davidkxx
    Well considering where you live -yep just better run away and hide caused you'll get thrown in jail if you lift a finger even to protect yourself! So whay do you carry anyway cause they will through you in jail for protecting yourself in RI!

    See I live in a state that allows me to protect myself and property with what ever force I deem nessesary! And yes others as well! Thats the difference in the freedoms we enjoy -some are just more free then others!:rofl:
     
  10. David Armstrong

    David Armstrong

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    Good article, hopefully it makes some folks think about a very controversial subject. I would add one point; Bethancourt says "Are you willing to give up your life, freedom, health and/or wealth for a complete stranger." I would add "are you willing to give up your family's health, wealth and future for that complete stranger." There are situations where I might be willing to take that chance just for me, but I think it unfair to force that choice on my family.
     
  11. Davidkxx

    Davidkxx Armed Response

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    David Armstrong:

    You are correct. Every thing you do effects your family. If you die protecting others, however noble it may be, you're still dead and your family will have to live without you and very likely still face a civil suit.

    Even if you win the fight, how well could you and your family survive with $140,000 lawyer bill?

    I'm not telling anyone what to do--that's a personal decision-- just advising that they be aware of ALL of the potential consequences.


    Gunnut 45/454,

    I strongly suggest you contact a local attorney and get some advice on the legal use of lethal force in your state. By the way, what happens with you leave your jurisdiction?

    cjlandry,
    Thanks for your kind words!
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2010
  12. beatcop

    beatcop

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    Good points....some guys don't get "it" though.

    Went to the active shooter training with your partner Mroz...it was a good time.
     
  13. Jim S.

    Jim S.

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    These threads always intrigue me. Lots of what ifs and specultion on what you should or would do.
    I think everyone would agree that each situation will be a unique experience that will be governed by the circumstances at the time of the incdent.
    Difficult to say what "we" should do if we can't put in all the variables.
    But... I like to ask how you would feel if you had the chance to save someone's life and didn't?
    How would you feel if the victim were someone you loved dearly, and someone failed to act when they had the opportunity to do something?
    I tend to think that unless the situation prevented me from acting, I would act.
    I tend to "want" to defend the helpless and weak individual from the preditor.
    It just seems like the thing a man should do.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2010
  14. j-glock22

    j-glock22

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    Seems like were looking at some absolute worse case senereos. If in the unlikely event you did use lethal force for defense, it's most likely going to be a case-solved deal, would it not? Woman getting raped, you step in, attacker turns on you, probably with the same weapon used to subdue the woman, you put him down.... tell me how that is going to turn into a $140000 defense for you?
     
  15. dnuggett

    dnuggett PRO 2A

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    I'm curious if any of you know what the potential chances are that you will have a $140,000 bill or die as a consequence of protecting someone?

    Seems to me that one of the decision factors would be the likelyhood that I will die or be sued to oblivion.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2010
  16. dnuggett

    dnuggett PRO 2A

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    As a side note this quote from the article is spot on:

    "I cannot tell you the number of times I have heard people say that they only carry a gun when they think they might need it. While they use that statement as an excuse for not carrying full-time they completely overlook the absurdity of their own words. If you are going to a place where you think you may need a gun, don't go."

    Well put! Some people think they know when/where they need to carry and where they don't. We both agree that line of thinking is absurd.
     
  17. RenegadeGlocker

    RenegadeGlocker

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    Bigger problem is who takes care of my family if I am dead.
     
  18. dnuggett

    dnuggett PRO 2A

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    Emotions aside... you haven't planned financially in the event of your death? For example, life insurance. There is a far greater chance you die of some other reason than saving someone else.
     
  19. RenegadeGlocker

    RenegadeGlocker

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    I meant take care of as in having a father around to raise them.
     
  20. dnuggett

    dnuggett PRO 2A

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    Totally agree. That is a big consideration for me as well.