Different Bell for Different Bullets?

Discussion in 'Reloading' started by xTerpx, Jul 2, 2020.

  1. xTerpx

    xTerpx

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    Embarrassed to say I fell down the "cam-over" rabbit hole and pulled an all-nighter reading up on theory last night; in the end (lol), I guess it has no place in my little 9mm minor world...more for headspacing bottlenecks, I guess, and getting the die true dead center/no sloop/repeatable/predictable/whatever?

    A lot of it was way over my head, but interesting, so I consumed way more than I should have...and then set my decap/resizing die to just where it met the shellplate (like "Gary" at Dillon suggests), rather than the additional 1/4 turn I set it at at first.

    So I moved on and got some sexy belling done, but I got to thinking—I wonder if I should bell more with coated bullets to ensure I don't scrape of the coating while seating...then I argued with myself that a thinner coating might not need as much bell...then argued that, in this case, both are .356 anyway, so keep it the same.

    So my question is—is there a well-known rule when it comes to belling for different bullets (e.g., cast require more to ensure you don't deform when seating or coated larger to protect the coating) or something like that?

    I took 3-4 different bullets (and with all being .356 I had a duh moment) and all sat up top perfectly ready for the seating die...was just going to seat each bullet and pull and view the results, but thought I would ask.

    If I can get away with setting it and forgetting it (trust, but verify) at .390 on the money, .010 larger than .380, then remove the bell to bring it back to a perfect .380, I can call it a night. :)
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  2. F106 Fan

    F106 Fan

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    Dillon suggests that 0.020" of bell 'ought to do it'. From the 550 User Manual
     
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  3. fredj338

    fredj338

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    I don't measure the bell/flare & use the same amount for all bullet types. I don't want the coating shaved or the plating shaved during seating. That also work just fine for jacketed. So set it up for lead/coated & load everything that way.
     
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  4. Collo Rosso

    Collo Rosso

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    After using RCBS dies with the "M" style plug, I didn't like the trumpet bell flare the Dillon powder funnels did. The "M" style flare is more of a bell shape and goes a little deeper in the case. It seems to be perfect for the softer cast and coated bullets. I replaced my powder funnels with "M" style funnels from Double Alpha academy.
     
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  5. Lil

    Lil

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    Measuring is too rigid of a metric that may not be optimal. I flare and observe the depth/stability of the unseated bullet. (I measure post-crimp.) Compare round vs. flat-based. I also chamfer. On finer rifle rounds I'll finish with a rub into 0000 steel wool for a baby-butt finish.

    Anybody at Dillon hearing customers' feedback about overworked brass?
     
  6. SARDG

    SARDG Florida's Left Coast

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    I went to the DAA funnels on my Dillons, as well - mostly because they work great with my bullet feeders. Never really measured a new case/sized case, vs. belled case until today and found a new Starline 9mm case measured .3740, and the belled case with my DAA setup measured .3945, so .0205 difference (nominal). Pretty close to Dillon's recommendation with their funnel. The way I arrived at that .0205 was "eyeballing" the bell, then trying it to see if my BF liked it. o_O

    When the BF drops the bullet in the case, it sits straight up and sticks like glue when the shellplate rotates. I think you should get a bullet feeder, @xTerpx. :outtahere:
     
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  7. fredj338

    fredj338

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    I lose the brass before I wear it out.
     
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  8. SARDG

    SARDG Florida's Left Coast

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    Me too. As I said before on this forum, I don't believe any single piece of brass is making it through my press more than 3 times. Too many lost brass matches.

    In the last 2 weeks of SCSA, I shot a minimum of probably 110 rounds each = 220. Recovered about 10 pieces total from both. And I mark my brass around the circumference so that I can 'see' it on the ground.

    Getting a fair amount of FC shot-once factory from friends, though.
     
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  9. xTerpx

    xTerpx

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    Next year, ma'am. Recall the Nietzsche quote. :)

    Even though I have the powder check and all that, I still want to develop some best practices and do the visual inspection until I get sick of placing bullets and know what the hell I am doing...said I would get either that or the primer filler next...just depends which one I get sick of doing first. Something tells me after stabbing my 14Kth primer I might lean toward the latter first.

    I only have TWO more questions and throwing in the towel for awhile.

    1.) My taper was just a little off...before putting it on the calipers, I could feel it and just felt excessive and pressed in just a hair (was at 0.376)...but damn close on the calipers. I'm going to have to do it again and do 1/8th turn or two.

    ...but my question is:

    I seated that over crimped first dummy to max OAL, though I knew my Glocks wouldn't like it...just wanted to work down incrementally, as I pick it up quicker repeating the process.

    So purely for purposes of checking my barrels, can I throw the finished dummy that has been taper crimped back into the seating die just to start taking it down a little?

    I assume it could/will jack up the inside diameter of the bullet and scrape it all up, but would the outside ogive and all that fancy stuff still allow me to do this again and again until I find a good OAL? Or would forcing it down against the taper jack the outer profile, too?

    I ask, as I'm already feeling like were back in the '20s and not wanting to keep blowing out cases and bullets playing. lol :)
     
  10. flyover

    flyover

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    I reload for the 22 Hornet and I use a Lyman M-die in station 1 on the 550 Dillon. It doesn't take much of a step to hold the bullet upright.
     
  11. xTerpx

    xTerpx

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    ...and thanks again to everyone sharing their knowledge. Very grateful for the words of wisdom, even the ones I don't yet understand but it will click eventually.

    Last one until I pull back and regroup (reads: margarita time while I read my instruction book again and ponder my setup). :)

    The .376 mouth after the taper just felt a touch too much, but I pulled the bullet to assess the damage and not bad at all...faint line, not scored or picked up rubbing a nail over it.

    So my question (easy ones from here on out, no more philosophical crap):

    Is this probably the absolute maximum and though I will lighten it a touch, this is doable, no? Just trying to get a feel for the go/no-go extremes. "Gary" probably nailed it and .378 would serve me well?

    This gives me more respect for you guys (and girls) who were doing this back before much published data...and internet/YouTube/forums...and rolling on your own when forced to figure it out, especially when it comes to powder charges...last piece of the puzzle for me.

    Without you, I saw this one is passable, but 1/8th a turn lighter should be money.

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    Last edited: Jul 2, 2020
  12. SARDG

    SARDG Florida's Left Coast

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    Sometimes it's just much faster to try something, than think about it and measure it... and think about it some more. I used to magically "fix" co-worker's computer problems at work with a few mouse-clicks and they thought I just amazing and asked me how I did that and so quickly. I told them I just started clicking on stuff until something worked! That may be oversimplification of my process, but largely... the process worked!

    .376 would be slightly over-crimped to me, but using that dummy round to get a close proper seat depth should be fine and not distort the bullet. In the end... I'd fix the crimp and check the seat depth with new components with a case/cartridge in every station. good time to check powder drop, as well.
     
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  13. SARDG

    SARDG Florida's Left Coast

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    Even with a PC and BF, you'll still need that visual check. Thanks to the new 750 powder assembly orientation, my choice was BF or a PC. BF won, hands-down. My visual check on both presses (PC, or not) is a microscope camera, using cell phones for monitors. I can sit comfortably and watch the 'monitor', without being that near or over the case. I think you should buy a microscope camera, @xTerpx. :p

    And I got tired of flip trays long before placing bullets on cases. I think you should buy a Dillon RF-100 Primer Filler, @xTerpx. :D
     
  14. xTerpx

    xTerpx

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    comb-girl.gif

    Yes, ma'am...figured it would get me close, then run a fresh setup all the way around.

    I'll deal with the short-throated early G19 later, but found 1.100 to be magical for the G45.

    I'm running with that, though cutting it close to minimum and slightly shorter than the min in the load data (but you guys taught me to start at the lower end then and work up). 1.1185 was a no-go and I don't want you to call me obsessed for trying to find a longer middle-ground. :)

    Easy to remember, too.
     
  15. unclebob

    unclebob DFC, MSM, 12 Air Medals.

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    Yes you can keep seating the bullet deeper. You have a case gauge and use it to set your crimp. I think you have used calipers more than I have and I have 3 of them and been doing this for over 50 years.

    For the bell since you like calipers, bell the mouth out to .14 .15 for all bullets. Or get the Double Alpha Dillon powder funnel.

    For primers I would take a look at the Double Alpha. Even though right now it is only for Small primers.

    I have been using the Vibra Prime for a couple of years now. Once you get the hang of how it works it does a good job. Never could get their primer tubes to work. I just use my Dillon tubes and hold them in place as it is being filled.
     
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  16. SARDG

    SARDG Florida's Left Coast

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    :laughabove:
     
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  17. xTerpx

    xTerpx

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    I posted that a magnetic parts tray was my favorite tool and changed my life in another thread. I think I need to revise that. I am digging the calipers and look forward to those fancy ogive attachments down the road.:)

    Yea, @F106 Fan mentioned +0.020...was trying to start at the minimum +0.010 and see if I could make that work...and you are right in the middle splitting the difference. However, what I am still struggling with is mixed brass.

    If I started with new Starline, then it makes sense...expect all new mouths to be spot-on and little variance case to case, so I could take an average reading and enlarge it 0.010 - 0.020 and not look back.

    With the smorgasbord of once- and many-fired range brass, I assumed the mouth readings would be all over the place, so thought +.010/.020 added to what? The safer play seemed to bell it out to .390, I thought...which is +0.010 from the standard .0380.

    In short, I thought belling out 10/20thou to 100s of cases of all different starting points would have more variance than setting 100s at a set 0.390, if that makes sense.

    I'm probably thinking about it wrong. I started with the assumption .380 after the crimp was perfection, so belling out all cases to .390, seating the bullet, then taper crimp the -0.010 brings me right back to .380.

    I know, I know. I am a number guy. This is one of many crosses I have to bear. :)
     
  18. ithaca_deerslayer

    ithaca_deerslayer

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    I'm just a newbie myself, probably will be for 20 years.

    Anyway.

    You don't want the bullet scrapped/shaved.

    You do want the bullet to just barely sit into the brass, almost, but not fall out, but to hold straight as the ram meets the bullet.

    You don't want the loaded bullet to be too loose, without neck tension. I press a loaded bullet by hand point first down on a hard surface and don't want any bullet movement (measure before and after with calipers). I want to deform the bullet (from my superman strength) instead of getting movement.

    I want to taper crimp after loading, enough so the case mouth is not flared and interfering with reliable chambering. But not crimping to try for increased tension (because that would just crush the bullet while the brass would spring out loose). Taper crimp only enough so no jagged flare (shouldn't ever flare that much to begin with). Test with plunk test now, and later shooting/functioning.

    What "number" achieves all this? I have no idea. Find the right best fit adjustment for all these criteria (simultaneously), then measure afterwards to see what the correct number is :)
     
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  19. xTerpx

    xTerpx

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    Thank you, sir...agree with everything you said. Sage advice.

    ...but does my bell and crimp look okay in the pic? :) :)
     
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  20. fredj338

    fredj338

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    Once crimped you can still seat deeper but more resistance & possible nose damage, which kind of affects oal measurements with calipers. Deoends on your seating die nose punch.
     
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