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Creepy; drive by the site of a Japanese internment camp every day.

Discussion in 'The Okie Corral' started by vart, Oct 11, 2012.

  1. Averageman

    Averageman

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    Simply not true, where in the Constitution does it mention the draft?
    You see when you use the Constitution as the basis for not using internment camps then you have to use the same Constitution to show me where a draft is legal.
    You cant, because it isnt there.
    But you can say a draft was legal, and you can say the camps were legal also.
    Your arguement falls apart there if you want to use a Constitutional basis. What may be legal may not be Constitutional, the law hasn't been challanged yet.

    You didn't comprehend my post. There is a big difference between hardships as the natural result of a war, and artificial hardships created for no valid reason.

    No, you dont comprehend that for all sacrifices are hardships, In WWII more than one person had to make a sacrifice and sacrifice they all did.
    Like it or not FDR made that decison based upon the reality of the time and the information he had available.
    Just like the kid pulled off the farm against his will to go fight in a War he didn't want to participate in; the Japanese people in certain locations were moved off their property and relocated and it was against their will, the same as it was for that hypothetical farm boy.
    Now, if you can see they both have freedom and the desire not to go do something the Government tells them to, how is it different?

    You also make the unsupported assumption that imprisoning these citizens was necessary for victory.

    No, FDR made that assumption and then came to a decsion, I just support what he did because.
    A) I can only trust that he had more information at the time, showing a danger if those people were left in that location. That decsion was based upon information available at the time, not a decsion made today or with the information we have today.
    B) In the end you will never know just how many of those people really were agents,or would have changed their alliance had the war gone a bit differently, most all of that information is a guess or would have died at the end of the War.
    C) Second guessing history is easy in this information age, but stepping up and making a hard decsion right or wrong is Leadership and that was what was called for.

    Explain to me how this is any different than some goat herder getting rounded up and sent to Guantanamo because he happened to be delivering some Mutton to Jihad Johnny when the S.F. Guys showed up?

    Other than being sorry it happened, appologising and handing over a buckets of cash; all of which we have done, what can you do?
    I got an idea lets hate America. No thanks, but you feel free to.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2012
  2. racerford

    racerford

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    The FDR EO made no mention of race, ethnicity, or national origin. They could have made anybody move. And apparently they did move more than Japanese Americans.

    I never said they got just compensation. However it was a lot more than many other innocent people got.

    You still have shown nothing that indicates they had no evidence on any of the people sent to camps.

    The compensation is only evidence that white guilt runs deep. I however, do feel guilty for something I had no part of. Do you say in this case that the sins of our fathers should rain down on us, but it was wrong for it to happen to the Japanese Americans. Which is it? If it is wrong in wrong in one case it is wrong in the other. I am glad that they only gave it to people that were actually in the camps. Again I state it is reprehensible that people should have their property taken without due process or just compensation. And I don't limit it to this circumstance.
     

  3. racerford

    racerford

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    Words have meaning.

    What number of naturalized citizens were in camps, that were not dependents of Japanese nationals? I haven't seen the numbers on that, have you. How do you know there was not adverse evidence against them? You don't.

    If they are actually Japanese nationals, then yes they can have their immigration status changed on a whim and be detain or deported. That is the reality for immigrants. In time of war deporting potential combatants back to their country is likely foolish and letting them wander around to spy on military bases and war production factories is likely foolish as well.
     
  4. racerford

    racerford

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    They were directed to leave, not detained.

    Did you know you could be put in jail for not following an evacuation order? You can be physically forced to leave your home?
     
  5. racerford

    racerford

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    This only say they have to leave the area. It says nothing of being detained. It doesn't make it right, but it was legal. Did you know they offered them a place to stay?

    Did you know that many companies were forced to produce war goods? They had their factories taken over. Heck even IBM made rifles.

    Again their property should not have been confiscated, if it was.

    Again my point is it was not racism; words have meaning. Otherwise, it would be OK to say if you beat up a gay guy because he gay was, that it was all about racism.

    I have yet see strong evidence that American Citizens of Japanese descent we detained solely due to their race or even ancestry. It appears the vast a majority were likely dependents of aliens that a choice made by their guardians that they would stay in the camps with them.

    I personally do not feel weirded out, or guilty about driving past internment or relocation camps from WWII. I have no reason to, as I had nothing to do with what happened. I wasn't born, and I refused to feel guilt for the sins of my father or grandfather, or more precisely the fathers or grandfathers of people I don't even know. Feel free to do so if you want to.
     
  6. frizz

    frizz

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    Leave the area. Where are they going to go? Their houses are not an option, and they have lost their jobs and businesses.

    You put forth the unsupported argument that this was not based on race, despite the fact that the restrictions applied to citizens of Japanese ancestry only. The fact that it was limited to certain areas does not change this fact.

    The comparison to making various companies produce war goods is not valid because being kicked out of your home simply because of where your grandparents were born is no comparison.

    Whether or not you should feel guilty is not my argument, and you have no reason to assert otherwise. I do not feel guilty since I didn't cause this, but it does concern me because the same arguments are being used to justify frightening actions that our government has taken in the war on terror.
     
  7. frizz

    frizz

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    I'm well aware of that. Imposing these restrictions on US citizens solely on their ancestry was and is wrong. It is dangerous to allow this power.

    Being ordered to leave the place where you live and work left these people without any viable option but to go to live behind barbed wire, under guard. Even if they were allowed to leave at will, where were they going to go, and how were they going to get there from an isolated camp?
     
  8. frizz

    frizz

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    Oh, because I think AMERICAN CITIZENS were treated horribly, that makes me hate my country??? You have said some damn foolish and outright stupid things, but that takes the cake.

    You first centered your arguments for the treatment on what a foreign nation did. When you I owned you on that, you switched to some foolishness about the difficulties others went through, never mind the fact that that is not a justification to deliberately wrong someone else.

    Now that you have been called on that stupidity, you accuse me of be anti-American. That is just as foolish, and you slide further down the hole of stupidity.

    Take a hike, son. Take a hike.
     
  9. JFrame

    JFrame

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    As frizz notes in that famous poster from 1942, Japanese Americans certainly were targeted for their ancestry. Your blindness to that fact doesn't make it any less true.

    Again, the minimal compensation is largely irrelevant other than to serve as tangible admission by the FedGov that they did wrong.

    While in the "relocation centers," and once the decision was made to open up military service to Japanese Americans because -- golly gee, maybe they were simply loyal Americans after all -- the U.S. government issued a document they would first have to sign stating that they would "forswear all allegiance to the Emperor of Japan." This left the J-A's in a quandary -- they feared that signing such a document would constitute some sort of admission that they had any loyalty to the emperor in the first place. A huge debate ensued with the J-A's in the compounds as to whether they should sign the document. Finally, the vast majority of them decided to sign, to give them an opportunity to "prove" themselves as loyal Americans. Clearly, the government would not have issued such a document if they had a clear sense as to who posed a legitimate threat or not. They were just doing a shotgun detention of a selected demographic based solely on their ancestry.

    I have no idea what you're talking about. I am pointing out an egregious violation of the Constitution that was perpetrated by a leftist president in the course of this nation's history. Certainly, other such violations of the Constitution have occurred, and none of them should be condoned, and they should all be remembered as a lesson to us to remain eternally vigilant in defense of our liberties.

    What I don't like is the hypocrisy of some who make the Second Amendment a battle cry for the Constitution, but who blithely ignore the Third, Fourth, Fifth, and Sixth Amendments when it serves their prejudicial or other convenient interests. I also don't want to hear any outcry from folks who consider Lincoln a tyrant for revoking the writ of habeas corpus when it affected a cause they hold dear, but would excuse the same action carried out against a segment of society that evidently didn't mean as much to them.

    I don't either -- I don't know why you think I do.


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  10. racerford

    racerford

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    You keep going back to race. Japanese Ancestry is not RACE, words have meaning. I hate the continuous race baiting. It is not about race. It is not about race. It is not about race. Have I made my point yet.

    If it was solely about race, all "mongoloids" across the country would have been interned. They weren't. So there must have been other factors. Like where they were located. Like some evidence that their associations that made officials suspect their activities.

    Was it Americas finest hour? No. Was it America's worst hour? Not by a long shot. Should it ever happen again? No. Could it happen again? Yes, provisions of the "Patriot Act" allow it. Provisions of the "RICO" laws allow property to be seized without due process and the owners being charged and convicted of a crime, and people have to sue and prove a negative (that it was not gained as a result of a crime they have not done and/or been convicted of).

    I still haven't seen any evidence that US Citizens of Japanese ancestry were interned, that weren't there because they were dependents of aliens. Were there US citizens of Japanese ancestry that ended up in relocation camps, sure but that was voluntary to stay in the camp. Was it reprehensible that they were force to leave their homes due to their ancestry? Yes. If they had forced all people out of exclusionary zones (as the EO allowed) would it have been better? Maybe you and some of the others think that would have made it OK. It would not have made it better for those people, it would have only made it worse for more people. That is the Liberal ideal of equality.

    It was not about race. It did not happen just those of Japanese ancestry. It did not happen SOLELY due to race or ancestry. Words have meaning.

    I am sick of people making things about race that are not about race. It happens every day in the news. It is disgusting and diminishes real problems that are about race.
     
  11. Dragoon44

    Dragoon44 Unfair Facist Lifetime Member

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    Internment did not start with WWII. there was internment of German Nationals and even German Americans during WWI.

    Many First generation German Americans had restrictions placed on them like requiring them to register and to stay out of exclusionary zones.
     
  12. JFrame

    JFrame

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    Took place during the reign of yet another leftist president...Figures...


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  13. Averageman

    Averageman

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    No again all Americans made a sacrifice, why would Japanese Americans and non Citizens of Japanese heritage living in stratigic positions allowed to stay there?
    Is that not an equal sacrifice?
    I would imagine that sacrifice is what it is, sacrifice; one no more noble than the next. How are the Japanese more noble than the Man who left his job to go fight in a War he didnt care to participate in?
    History is what it is, History.
    You cannot change it and second guessing it only adds hate to America and the decisons made at the time.
    Son? hahahahahah!
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2012
  14. Averageman

    Averageman

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    Oh and by the way you can be sure I'm much too old to be your Son and much too educated to call you my Kin.
     
  15. frizz

    frizz

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    You are a broken record of flawed reasoning. You repeat yourself, and fail to get it. You can make a strawman about me claiming that the Japanese-Americans were somehow "more noble" all you want, but remember that a strawman is desperate and dishonest.

    But you tried the "you-hate-America" bit, so more dishonesty isn't a surprise.

    I do not try to change the past, and you are being dishonest by saying that I am. Now you come up with even more foolishness by saying that I am adding hate to America.

    I suppose you think we should just keep quiet about errors of the past so that we can repeat them. Exposing our own soldiers to nuclear blasts to see what it does to them? No problem. CIA slipping LSD mickeys into American's drinks to see what it does to them? Hey... Consider the times.
     
  16. frizz

    frizz

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    It is an expression. I'd think that an educated man would recognize that.