Couple is an example of why 2a has already failed.

Discussion in 'Political Issues' started by Rick James45, Jul 11, 2020.

  1. Pluto57

    Pluto57

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    Nope, but that doesn't change my point. Cops follow orders. If they're ordered to stand down and let rioters riot, that's what they'll do. If they're ordered to confiscate guns, that's what they'll do.
     
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  2. Nutty Professor 188

    Nutty Professor 188 Patrol Corporal

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    Interesting point. Do you think they should rush in without orders, or organization, or the infrastructure to allow for effective action?

    In the past, on several occasions, I have been ordered in to dispel riots. And I did so. This time, we were ordered to make decisions based on prudence. On the 2nd night, one of my fellow corporals was boxed in behind a shopping center, 70 to his one. In his car, he charged one of the bad guys cars and got out. By the time his back up got there the group had moved on.
    Maybe he should have dismounted and opened fire with his pistol and AR. Good headline: Cop opens fire on unarmed crowd”

    These are difficult times and we have no support from the public, the media, the DA, or our admin.
    It is easy to sit and say “the cops should go in and kick their a$$es” but when we do we get crucified from every direction.

    I don’t think you read me correctly the first time. The cops are on your side. The majority of us have no intention to take anyone’s guns. We are gun owners ourselves. We have friends and families that are gun owners.

    If there were ever such a paradigm shift to violate the 2A it would be the military ordered to do it. Are you gonna start hating on them next?
     
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  3. Pluto57

    Pluto57

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    I'm not hating on cops. I just have realistic expectations. If cops get orders to confiscate guns, they're going to do so. It will start with the red flag laws (which cops are currently enforcing) and it will escalate from there. I haven't ever seen anything that would lead me to believe any differently. I don't believe it will be necessary to bring in the military to confiscate guns. The cops will do it.
     
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  4. ExecutiveWill

    ExecutiveWill

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    Different cops do different things when put in precarious situations. I believe some cops will refuse unconstitutional orders (some already have), and I believe others will simply “follow orders.”

    Like every other person (which is what cops are), you can’t make blanket statements.
     
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  5. nrajeff

    nrajeff

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    You brought up 2 interesting points, which I won't challenge except to mention the Paul Harvey story of a young Army Lieutenant who ran to his window when he heard a woman screaming. She was being attacked by a man. The Lt. quickly retrieved his service .45, pointed it out the window at the man, and ordered him to stop or he would shoot. The attacker ran away and the woman was saved. The attacker didn't know that the .45 was unloaded. The young hero's name? Ronald Reagan.
     
  6. nrajeff

    nrajeff

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    When I was in LE, if such an order had been given, I would have refused to obey it and would have said "Take this job and shove it" rather than obey it. And I think most of my fellow officers would have done the same.
     
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  7. slym2none

    slym2none

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    Their house was directly across the street from the smashed gate. It was literally the first house the "peac..." - no - the terrorists came across on their way to do who-knows-what. And the McCloskey's were threatened before they retrieved any weapons.

    Stick that in your pipe and smoke it.
     
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  8. larry_minn

    larry_minn Silver Member Millennium Member

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    Life must be so simple. When you have a career. Sometimes you have to do stuff you would rather not. Until it crosses a line.
    You get zero support from community, department, city leadership. Instead they call you names, racist, lazy.... and try to get you arrested.
     
  9. larry_minn

    larry_minn Silver Member Millennium Member

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    Let’s be honest. The guy asked for trouble. You realize they were having lunch outside when the prayer meeting group got lost. He had the uncivilized nerve to tell them it was private property. (As if the 3 sign, and gate were not enough). So it’s his fault the prayer group targeted his trailer house.
     
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  10. hooligan74

    hooligan74

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    That's a cool story and good for ol' Ronny!

    Not exactly and apples to apples comparison, and I'm betting it didn't happen in MO, so not terribly applicable to the discussion at hand, unfortunately.

    I had read a claim that the MO Supreme Court had previously ruled that an unloaded gun was irrelevant as the person the gun was being pointed at couldn't reasonably be expected to discern that fact. I haven't researched the claim, however. It would stand to reason that precedent could apply in this scenario as well, though, if true.
     
  11. hooligan74

    hooligan74

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    The gate wasn't smashed at the time of the confrontation with the McCloskeys - there is video evidence of that.
    https://www.ksdk.com/article/news/l...sters/63-14a1582a-9372-4494-b8ee-41d5d4d71b61


    View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGDs835Lo9Y


    The protesters didn't just materialize in the Portland Place neighborhood - they almost certainly walked by scores of houses on their way. How many of those houses were attacked/damaged/vandalized/etc in some way?

    Where's the evidence that the McCloskeys were threatened prior to producing their weapons?
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2020
  12. slym2none

    slym2none

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    Where's the evidence they weren't?

    #BlackGunsMatter
     
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  13. Pluto57

    Pluto57

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    Well, cops are already confiscating guns based on red flag laws, so I don't have reason to believe that if other anti-gun laws are passed that include confiscating, say, banned firearms, that cops won't obey those laws as well.
     
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  14. Pluto57

    Pluto57

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    I agree. What's at issue is what that line is. I don't think confiscating guns under red flag laws or banned firearms laws will be that line for most cops.
     
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  15. JimmyCat

    JimmyCat

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    My understanding and I have read local reports since the day it happened, that several of the "peaceful protesters" were armed. So, I guess it is ok for the protesters to be armed but not ok for the homeowners. I call BS.
     
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  16. Pluto57

    Pluto57

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    Certainly the McCloskeys have maintained that some of the demonstrators were armed, but I've not seen anything that corroborates the claim. I may have missed it, tho, as I haven't read as much as some other folks.
     
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  17. hooligan74

    hooligan74

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    You made the claim - back it up.
     
  18. slym2none

    slym2none

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    The McCloskey's made the claim. I have no reason to disbelieve them. You want proof, ask them. I wasn't there - and neither were you.

    :)
     
  19. hooligan74

    hooligan74

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    You made the claim. You didn't say "But the McCloskeys say they were threatened", you said "the McCloskeys were threatened".

    You don't think avoiding a brandishing or assault charge is a reason to doubt their claims?
     
  20. nrajeff

    nrajeff

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    I can stipulate in some local jurisdictions, some cops have obeyed orders under their city's (or maybe state's) Red Flag laws. But to extrapolate from those isolated cases to a generalization regarding what all cops, everywhere in the USA, would do, seems like, well, extrapolation. There are LEOs (possibly entire departments) on record stating they would not obey such an order even if it came from their governor. The Sheriff of Loudoun County VA is opposed to Red Flag laws:

    "...the Sheriff’s Office had a stance ready on Tuesday, opposing red flag legislation and noting that law enforcement already has the authority to arrest someone using on an Emergency Custody Order, or based on their own judgment that a person may be a danger. “The Loudoun County Sheriff is also concerned that this legislation unfairly compels law enforcement to remove weapons when no criminal violation exists, and can be based on mere accusation, observation or interpretation by a third party,” according to a statement provided to county staff members for their report to supervisors, adding that “these bills would compound what are already dangerous situations for deputies and officers, and would place a heavy burden and high level of accountability on law enforcement who are not psychiatrists, psychologists, or mental health professionals.” (LoudounNow.com)

    Have you been party to a conversation between cops where this question was discussed? I have, and they have said they absolutely would not obey an unconstitutional gun confiscation order. Did you know of a survey of all cops to find out where they stand on this issue?