close

Privacy guaranteed - Your email is not shared with anyone.

Competitors complaints

Discussion in 'GSSF' started by Littlerock, Dec 6, 2004.

  1. Littlerock

    Littlerock

    Messages:
    169
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    May 3, 2003
    Location:
    San Antonio
    As mentioned in my post last night, I was the guy organizing the shooting squads at the Five to Glock next to the plates. During my two days of RO ing I was privleged to many conversations from GSSF shooters. The most common theme was shooter's complaints concerning other shooters, who were shooting in categories with restricted guns.
    Example, Fiber OPtic sights in AM/Civ, 17C in AM/Civ. I understand their complaints, many shooter put effort into keeping their Glocks "category legal", and why not except the same from your fellow shooters. I understand that RO s are the last line of defense in keeping it, "LEGAL". However, most Ro s come from different shooting disciples , Action Pistol, IDPA, IPSC and are unfamilar with the rules. Yes, this is an excuse but, it is also a reason. So Glock Talkers, what is the solution?
     
  2. Don At PC

    Don At PC Senior Member Millennium Member

    Messages:
    5,227
    Likes Received:
    8
    Joined:
    Dec 17, 1998
    Location:
    USA
    The only solution is:

    1. RO's enforce the rules

    2. Other GSSF Competitors report these violations to either the RO or GSSF Representative

    3. Disqualitying the guilty parties

    I have abosolutely No Respect to ANY Cheater. I follow the rules to the letter and expect others to do the same; IF you can't do this then stay out of my site because I will call you out immediately. This is a fun, layed back but competitive family oriented shooting venue and if you have to cheat: Stay The Hell Out.

    Short, sweet and directly to the point.
     

  3. Terminator

    Terminator

    Messages:
    860
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2002
    Location:
    Kentucky
    HOOYAH Don!


    I want to reply to your post even though i wasnt there if i may.

    Please understand that im not flaming anyone, just giving an honest unbiased opinion. I think that if your going to take on the role of RO for an event, you should be fully aware of all rules, and be capable of enforcing them. Its kinda like calling a ballgame and not knowing the rules.

    If someone had "illegal" equipment for a particular class, then they should either be DQ'd, or informed to make the change to accomodate the rules.
     
  4. Sandman_NC

    Sandman_NC

    Messages:
    343
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2002


    Could not have said it better myself!
     
  5. murph2127

    murph2127

    Messages:
    392
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2000
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    Tthe biggest problem I've seen is that most the time the folks that come to help RO the matches are the IPSC or IDPA shooters from the surrounding clubs and NOT folks who shoot GSSF regularly. I Ro'ed a match a few years ago where between all the RO's only one owned a glock. They were all USPSA shooters who helped run a Glock match as they believed in the concept of GSSF even if it wasn't something they were fully into.

    I've heard theories as to why this is but I don't know the truth. I suspect that with one or maybe two GSSF matches a year in a given area in comparison to 30-50 USPSA/IDPA matches in the same area the USPSA/IDPA shooters have a deeper pool to lend experienced range help. These guys know how to work a match and keep it flowing- and safe. But the finer points of GSSF equipment rules are unknown to them.

    The other problem is the GSSF RO training is rather limited in time and the majority of the time is spent revolving around the safety issues, stage management and the actual stage you are running. That does not give a lot of time to the equipment rules. I don't think there is much of an answer to this problem though.

    FWIW, I Ro'ed 2 GSSF matches before even joining the organization. I wasn't into shooting the match but I felt GSSF does wonders for the new shooters so I pitched in. I didn't really understand all the divisions & equipment issues until I joined and got the rules laid down to me in the newletter. I'm likely not atypical of the guys who help out in that respect.

    So if you folks can see where I'm headed at. I think more of the GSSF shooters should try to Ro a match for a day or half day and bring more volunteerism into the ranks. Also maybe the Glock Report should have a colum on officiating to help get people informed and interested.

    Ted
     
  6. Littlerock

    Littlerock

    Messages:
    169
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    May 3, 2003
    Location:
    San Antonio
    I am not exactly sure what "flaming" is ,but your sexual preference is your business:) . As far as your statement (and Don's at PC)goes, could not agree more. UNlike most people whose words speak louder than their actions, I will ensure that my host club in San Antonio is aware of the rules. As an added measure each stage will have a copy of GSSF rules with areas of concern highlighted. As far as enforcing goes, I personally have no reservations enforcing to any extent, however, I will not ask the same of my club members. When a situation arises that cannot be settled between the RO and shooter, GSSF personel will be called in. SO, next year the plates at San Antonio will up to yalls standards. Bishop
     
  7. Littlerock

    Littlerock

    Messages:
    169
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    May 3, 2003
    Location:
    San Antonio
    Sir, You were presented a problem and you produce a well thought out solution, you have my applause and respect. If I may add, many "DIE HARD GSSF PEOPLE" shoot early Saturday and stick around the host city for a Dinner that night I am told. With prior coordination these shooter at the very least could watch shooter on the line for "restricted guns" and after a short while most "unfamilar ROs" will be up to speed.
     
  8. Fumble

    Fumble RIP Poom . . .

    Messages:
    1,117
    Likes Received:
    9
    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2004
    Location:
    East Minnesota (a.k.a. Western WI)
    The big part is knowing what is legal. I wonder how many know that it is legal to shoot a compensated gun in AM/Civ. if the barrel is not compensated thus rendering the gun non-compensated or more specifically, “stock.”
     
  9. Terminator

    Terminator

    Messages:
    860
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2002
    Location:
    Kentucky
    Littlerock,
    I meant that i wasnt trying to roast anyone or anything, and in reading my post it seems i came off sounding harsh, but didnt mean it that way. My apologies.

    Ive kinda been in that same situation before and know what you had to deal with. The ballgame scenario was real when a very good friend and Ball player helped umpire a tournament but wasnt a certified ump. All hell broke loose and it was a mess. It was a hard lesson learned from which people are still mad.

    As for the RO'S, I know those people are very kind, and nice enough to volunteer their time for these events and i for one appreciate it. Please dont think it was a slam towards them, it wasnt.
     
  10. Don At PC

    Don At PC Senior Member Millennium Member

    Messages:
    5,227
    Likes Received:
    8
    Joined:
    Dec 17, 1998
    Location:
    USA

    Anyone who has read the rules in the Glock Report either in the copy sent to all members or the one on the www.gssfonline.com web site. Rule # 170.90. This is a good point though and is is very clear in the rules.
     
  11. Terminator

    Terminator

    Messages:
    860
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2002
    Location:
    Kentucky
    I had read that in Bobby C's tips section. He said it makes for better slide speed. Cool idea. :cool:
     
  12. DaleGribble

    DaleGribble Sandwich!

    Messages:
    7,489
    Likes Received:
    875
    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2003
    Location:
    Land of the toothless!
    I can understand a new shooter coming to the match and having some after market part that isn't stock. I got no problems with that guy, ch!t happens, ya know!

    What really gets me is the guys that know what the rules are and circumvent them anyway. You know, like somebody that's a master in another discipline but shoots amatuer, or someone that comes in with a heavily modified gun that they know is illegal and shoots it anyway.

    Those are the ones that I strongly dislike.

    So is this thread about whining shooters or equipment issues? ;f
     
  13. Fireglock

    Fireglock Which is worse?

    Messages:
    2,952
    Likes Received:
    1
    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2000
    Location:
    Pinellas County, FL
    Remember, it's the shooter, not the gun. ;Q If it's the shooter and not the gun, why do we have rules for the guns? ;Q I'm open to answers. ;f
     
  14. Butch

    Butch RetiredDinosaur CLM Millennium Member

    Messages:
    11,284
    Likes Received:
    375
    Joined:
    Dec 17, 1998
    Location:
    Minnesota
    I'm a rather hard core stock gun shooter (gonna build a race gun someday ;g ) complete with an eight pound connector in my old G17, and I really enjoy GSSF because I don't have to compete against those with highly modified guns.

    I think it's important that RO's at least be familiar with the rules and, ideally, have a copy of the rules within reach so they can righteously deal with any possible violations well enough to know when to call a CRO for action.



    ;?
     
  15. DannyR

    DannyR Moderator Millennium Member

    Messages:
    20,043
    Likes Received:
    338
    Joined:
    Dec 17, 1998
    Location:
    Stuarts Draft, Virginia
    Folk's,

    RO's are volunteers and may not always be familiar with Glocks and GSSF Rules. We, as competitors, should always be aware of those shooters around us and their equipment. If you detect a possible violation, you should bring it to the attention of an RO. If the RO is unsure, then he or she should immediately call for the GSSF match director--Chris, Scott or David--for a ruling. We competitors also have that option of bringing infractions to the attention of Chris, Scott or Dave.

    In the past I have protested illegal sights, barrels, magazine sleeves, modified frames and rail mounted lights on Amateur entries, and will continue to do so at the matches I attend.

    Sometimes an amateur entrant does not know his equipment is illegal and it's up to us to help that entrant better understand the rules.

    Sometimes entrants know quite well they are cheating and those entrants, when caught, should be disqualified from the present and any future GSSF match.

    Folks, it's up to us. Don't pass the buck to an RO that has volunteered his or her time for two days so that we could shoot the match.
     
  16. Terminator

    Terminator

    Messages:
    860
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2002
    Location:
    Kentucky
    Thats a good point coach, but dont you think that its pretty irresponsible to show up to a match and not know that sort of thing?

    Before i went to my first match "Lex" i had almost memorized the rules section so i wouldnt do anything wrong.

    I rank it right up there with the basic safety rules in importance, but thats just me.

    Its all Rules of Engagement.
     
  17. DannyR

    DannyR Moderator Millennium Member

    Messages:
    20,043
    Likes Received:
    338
    Joined:
    Dec 17, 1998
    Location:
    Stuarts Draft, Virginia
    Some folks show up at their 1st ever GSSF match. joining GSSF at the match, with fiber optic sights and think they are permitted because they don't know any better. There are often reasons behind misunderstandings. Fiber optics are permitted in IDPA and IPSC.
     
  18. WIG19

    WIG19 Light left on

    Messages:
    3,785
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2003
    Location:
    Renegade State
    Both of these ideas are solid IMO, particularly an article on officiating. (Would a non-GSSF'er know that a 17L barrel in a 34 or 34 barrel in a 17 is legal in Comp, for example?)

    FWIW, I'd be happy to make the 350-mi round trip each day to my nearest match, Oakdale, (the drive is cheaper than a Mnpls area hotel) to help out in some way, but have been told that volunteers are only culled from members of the club hosting the match at Oakdale, anyway. They could still keep the shirt after I'm done... So I'm relegated to offering to tape.

    I don't mind, ever, someone pushing the limits of what's already been defined as legal; it's the nature of competition but that's why we have divisions. I tread water in AC as it is; if I saw someone with a clearly illegal gun I'd have to say something as politely as possible to an RO to point that out. It's everyone else's standing they're affecting as well as one of the things I love most about GSSF, which is the non-cutthroat nature of it. But then I don't give my brother-in-law mulligans either...) Just $.02 worth adjusted for inflation.
     
  19. pangris

    pangris Moderator

    Messages:
    2,516
    Likes Received:
    4
    Joined:
    May 19, 2002
    Location:
    Baton Rouge
    I'm really glad to see this thread. I shot my G21 instead of my USPSA production G17 because it would have been a pain to reverse all the various things I've done to get it to the USPSA production limit.

    Considering that a $400 cert is on the line, I have no doubt there are people who would cheat. I've seen people cheat for nothing other than bragging rights. If I was a cheater and had brought my 17 with its 2 lb trigger, overtravel stop, FO sights, maybe some handloads... I'd have knocked a few seconds off my box stock G21 with factory ammo.

    But I wouldn't feel right about it.

    In a perfect world, the results could be tabulated and shooters would have thier guns inspected. It isn't a perfect world. And if unscrupulous USPSA shooters figure out you can make $350+ by going to a match - $400 for the cert less the entry/join fee - we're going to see a lot of sub 70 sec cums from A/B class shooters.

    Paul
     
  20. DannyR

    DannyR Moderator Millennium Member

    Messages:
    20,043
    Likes Received:
    338
    Joined:
    Dec 17, 1998
    Location:
    Stuarts Draft, Virginia
    Paul,

    Those shooters could easily be designated as masters and bumped into Master Stock or Unlimited categories. It's happened in the past. See rule #170.30, definition of Amateur.