Clays Vs Titegroup

Discussion in 'Reloading' started by Rinspeed, Oct 25, 2015.

  1. Rinspeed

    Rinspeed JAFO

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    My LGS has several pounds of each and I've never used either so I'm looking for some help. I have used mostly Unique, 231 and WST for 124 and 147 FMJ 9mm, 230 FMJ .45 ACP and 158 SWC and 148 HBWC in .38 Special. Unique and 231 have always been my go to powders but they have both been very hard to find locally for quite some time. Comparing Clays to Titegroup is one better than the other for what I'm looking for. Most of my loads are midrange ones and I'm not necessarily looking for max accuracy seeing I shoot a lot of steel targets. I know this question doesn't have a easy answer but I appreciate any help you guys can give me.
     
  2. Hoser

    Hoser Ninja

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    For 45 I prefer Clays for plinking/mid-range power ammo.

    I like TG in 9, 40 and 38.

    TG gets a bit smoky compared to 231 with lead bullets.
     

  3. unclebob

    unclebob DFC, MSM, 12 Air Medals.

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    I also use Clays for 45. And I like TiteGroup and WSF for 9mm. Have not loaded any .40 in about 14 years and still shooting .38 that I loaded over 20 years ago.
     
  4. thomas15

    thomas15

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    I would buy a pound of each and give 'em both a try.

    In the dark days of late 2013, early 2014 when pistol powder was nearly impossible to find, Titegroup was the easiest to get. I think that many bought TG because that was all that was available. They found that it works well for low power 9mm, 38 spl and 45 acp.

    The rumor mill tells us that Hodgdon is having Clays made in a different plant in Canada. It was being made in Austrailia but a fire in the plant took Clays off the market for almost 2 years. In my humble opinion, a lot of Clays users have learned to love another out of necessity and I believe that once Clays becomes available again it will be much easier to obtain. In the near future Clays may be difficult to locate though.

    I had a chance in the spring to buy some Clays and I did, 8 pounds of the stuff. I have and and will use it someday but I don't know when. Personally, my go to for 9mm, 38 and 45 is TG. But as mentioned I have Clays and I also have 12 or 13 pounds of HP-38/W231.
     
  5. fredj338

    fredj338

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    The higher loft of clays gets my vote. Both are fast & best used for light to midrange loads in the service calibers. Anything you can load into a 9mm can be loaded in a 40.
     
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  6. Three-Five-Seven

    Three-Five-Seven Señor Mombo Millennium Member

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    I have used a LOT of Clays and Titegroup over the years. I have only used them for LOW INTENSITY loads and have never played with either of them at the upper end of their load range.

    So, if you're looking for a powder that is for light to moderate loads, either will work in my experience.

    I switched from Clays to Titegroup about ten years ago. I made the change because of the variations in ignition and ballistics (internal and external) I was getting with Clays when there were weather changes or when I had to deploy firearms in unusual positions or from unusual resting places. In other words, I found Clays to be unacceptably (for me) sensitive to temperature and gun-position. Getting squib-like ignition on cold days came to be a serious distraction from keeping my head in the game. So, I switched to Titegroup and those problems went away. Titegroup goes bang exactly the same way every time, rain or shine, hot or cold, inverted gun or straight draw from leather. I use a lot of Titegroup and depend on it. It meters with excellent consistency.

    Also, note that Clays has, is, will be, might gonna be, discontinued. Hodgdon made this announcement about a year ago. It still keeps showing up, however. But, probably not for long. So, it doesn't warrant spending time in load development since it may not be available in the future.

    However, having said that, if I was starting fresh today, I would employ WST for all my competitive use. It, too, is an "improved" powder that does not suffer from temperature or position variations. (I've heard many times it is inversely sensitive to temperature, but I've not personally experienced this "fact" -- I live in the Desert Southwest) WST has metered extremely well, in my experience. And, it is very accurate (i.e. consistent).

    WST is as easy, or perhaps easier than Titegroup to locate. Therefore, I'd strongly recommend WST as your new best friend. It is clean, relatively quiet, and works great with lead bullets. Powder Valley has regularly had WST in stock and does at this time.

    The other powder I've used that works extremely well is VV310. It is an exceptionally fast burning powder. But, it is bulkier than Titegroup and 231. It makes very clean, accurate, and consistent loads for target and action shooting where low to moderate intensity are needed. It is also quiet and clean (relatively speaking).
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2015
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  7. jmorris

    jmorris

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    Add me to the Clays in 45 and TG for 9mm group.
     
  8. norton

    norton

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    I found a # of TG today at Cabela's. I use it for my cast bullet .38 special rounds.
     
  9. 8Ring

    8Ring

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    Use Titegroup for light to mid-range 9mm loads with jacketed bullets in all bullet weights. Titegroup is very popular with 9mm action shooters. Clays is simply too fast for that application.

    Clays works quite well for light to medium with 200 and 230 gr lead bullets in 45 acp. I found that Titegroup burned too hot, created lots of smoke, and was no more accurate or consistent than Clays in 45 acp.

    For 38 spl, Clays can provide nice light loads that burn cleanly with lead bullets. Titegroup can also work in .38 spl BUT be careful of loading double charges with it. Titegroup is very dark and dense and it is very difficult to see a double charge in a 38 spl. case.

    For load data with these powders, get the Hodgdon Annual Manual through Amazon. The Manual has thousands of rifle and pistol loads for all Hodgdon, Winchester, and IMR powders.
     
  10. smokey45

    smokey45

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    I've found Clays to work well in 9/40/45. I use it a lot in 9 and 40 for minor loads. I'm getting single digit SD with my Clays loadings. Accuracy is good, and I haven't know it to be position sensitive.
    s45
     
  11. fredj338

    fredj338

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    You can load any powder in any caliber, just depends on what you want to achieve. If Clays works in 45, can also work in 9mm & 40. I use Reddot in 9mm & 40 minor, it's pretty fast burning but for minor loads, just what you need.
     
  12. Rinspeed

    Rinspeed JAFO

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    Thanks for the help guys, I really appreciate it. Still not sure what direction I will take but your opinions certainly have been helpful. It seems to me the powder situation is getting better and I might hold out for a couple more weeks. I do still have quite a bit of powder left, nothing like some of you, and a couple other LGSs say they have some shipments coming in this week. One of my buddies, like the open-azz he is, snagged a 8# jug of Unique last month and will give me a couple pounds if it comes to that.
     
  13. smokey45

    smokey45

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    Yeah, Clays is not optimal across the board for my applications, but it does a decent job at what it does. I had good success with Red Dot/Promo as well. During the peak component shortage, I made do with what I could find. It's not difficult to find a workable load with most powders with comparable burn rates as the above.
    s45
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2015
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  14. norton

    norton

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    Not going to try it but- No I will not.
    I wonder if a double charge of tite group in a 38 special cast bullet application would damage a .357 magnum wheel gun. Fred are you out there? I just loaded 500 rounds of .38 special with a cast 105 grain bullet. I used 3.7 grains of TG. Would a double charge of what would be the equivalent of 7.4 grains cause a ka boom? The lyman cast bullet manual doesn't list that combination with TG, but it does show Bulls Eye at 7.7 grains starting load with that same bullet. Case capacity of course would be different then the .38 special. Your thoughts?
     
  15. garander

    garander

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    Norton! As kids, 35 years ago, before we discovered 2400, we used 8 grains of bullseye with a 125 gr jacketed in 357 model 19's. magnum cases. But yea, that double charge in the shorter special case.......will wait for fred's reply too!
     
  16. fredj338

    fredj338

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    Not likely. Speer lists 5.1gr under a 110gr jhp as a +p. You will certainly be well over 38+p pressures, but not likely to damage a good 357mag. I still don't like TG, just no reason to use it when other powders do a sim job with more bulk in the case.
     
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  17. PEC-Memphis

    PEC-Memphis Scottish Member

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    I will say that I've use a bunch of TG in 9mm & .40 S&W. It meters extremely well out of a Dillion powder measure.
     
  18. thomas15

    thomas15

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    I agree with what you are saying with respect to WST. WST isn't shown in any manual that I know of for 9mm but I use it anyway for light target loads. Again caution is advised. But good powder for pistol WST is.

    I haven't tried VV N310 but have used N320. For my application in 38 SPL, I personally see no real difference between it and TG.

    I also use TG in 38 spl. I understand the danger using TG in a cartridge that has high walls like 38 spl. I'm not relying only on it but have added an RCBS lock out die to give another layer of protection against a squib or double charge. I have experimented with going under/over the powder weight by 1/2 of the actual powder the lock out is set for and find it does the job and locks the press. I did this to test since TG uses such small amounts of powder. In other words the lock out die works as intended using TG with small loads in high case wall pistol brass.
     
  19. jmorris

    jmorris

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    I have used N310, N320 and TG in 45, 9mm and 38/357 loads, the largest difference is that the VV powders are cleaner.
     
  20. njl

    njl Crusty Member

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    I dunno about that. I'm not sure that I've seen it, but WST is often said to be reverse temperature sensitive. I know for a fact (from my own testing) it is position sensitive. Other drawbacks are that it's very clingy (tends to really stick to the sides of the hopper) and there's virtually no published data for it in 9mm or really anything lower volume than .40. I've used it in some 9mm, and lots of it in .45acp. Red Dot / Promo seems to be just as good in these calibers, and tends to be cheaper.