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Church Security Team - Update

Discussion in 'Carry Issues' started by Willieboy, Mar 28, 2010.

  1. Willieboy

    Willieboy

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    Well, I just returned from a meeting of those interested in helping protect the flock. A Houston Police Officer who is very much involved in special operations, anti-terorist operations and S.W.A.T operations addressed us. He is very highly trained and up-to-date on what is going on in our area and accross the country, and even around the world. He began by telling us that when we left the meeting, we were not going to be filled with the warm fuzzies. He was right!

    He told us about the horrible thing happening throughout the United States and in our area.... things are never presented in the news we all see everyday. Much of his talk addressed the threat of radical Islamists already in the United States, and the efforts made by law enforcement to thwart their efforts.

    He also spoke of active shooter incidents such as Columbine, for example.

    Anyway, he urged us to get busy and develop a plan to counter an attack on the church. (There have been fourteen attacks on churches in the last two months and the frequency of these attacks, which included child abductions, is growing. Christians are perceived as being willing tho turn the other cheek and are thus being targeted.)

    In attendance were about seven people, including one woman. Two were police officers who, unbeknownst to me, were already strategically positioned in the church. However, their's was an uncoordinated effort. Also, there is just too much church for two guys to protect. There are so many children present in various playrooms and classrooms. This is what terrifies me. These short people need to be protected.

    It was decided we will meet again and the police officers among us will guide us in preparing a common sense plan. Then, the plan will be presented to the church elders/deacons and, if approved, financial resources will be made available for training and equipment.

    It was interesting to me, how serious conservative Christians can be when they feel threatened. Sarah Palin would have been proud.... I was.

    There was no mention made of any liability issues or involvement of the Texas Department of Public Safety. I'm sure though that tese things will be addressed before any plan is implemented.

    Bill
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2010
  2. LoadToadBoss

    LoadToadBoss IYAAYWOT

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    A coordinated church security plan is hard to develop let alone implement.
     

  3. GLOCK35TX

    GLOCK35TX As seen on TV

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    I disagree..

    ANY plan of action is better than nothing at all, as long as there IS a plan of action to suppress/stop a given danger or situation. Most trained LE have the ability to establish a valid set of response plans

    BUT anyone who is assigned on a security detail needs to have all their focus on providing that security and not as an active participant during the church service to which they are providing that security

    If there had been ONE person assigned as security detail during this example - there might have been a very different outcome.

    Circumstances
    Date: September 15, 1999
    Location: Wedgewood Baptist Church, Fort Worth, Texas
    Alleged Shooter: Larry Gene Ashbrook
    People Killed: Eight (shooter committed suicide)
    People Injured: Seven
    Firearm(s): Ruger P85 9mm pistol and a .380 pistol

    Ashbrook, who had a history of paranoia and mental instability, shot three people in the Wedgewood Baptist Church lobby before entering the sanctuary where more than 150 people were waiting for a concert to begin. He shot 11 more in the sanctuary before shooting himself, killing eight in all. He also threw a pipe bomb, with no injuries.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2010
  4. Willieboy

    Willieboy

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    Well said. I don't know if the incident you cited is the same as one the LEO presented becasue the one he talked about was in Dallas. There was an off-duty police officer present at the slaughter, but he was unarmed in church. The officer's child was one of those killed.

    At our meeting, the LEO referred us to this site. I pass it on to you:

    http://www.gleamingedge.com/mirrors/onsheepwolvesandsheepdogs.html
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2010
  5. Jake Starr

    Jake Starr

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    Yes. And herein lies the rub. Every church needs a security plan. But it is hard to plan and implement from an organizational standpoint. By that I mean because of the denominational and insurance concerns. To have a church based security team is almost impossible in many areas.

    At best churches need to have off duty LEOs in each service. Otherwise individuals in the congregations must act as civilian CCW holders as far as to the circumstances.

    Individual church members can get together and train if they wish but as soon as a pastor or a church board gets involved it is a whole new situation.

    I know. I have been both pastor and church security consultant.
     
  6. MarcoPolo

    MarcoPolo

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    While I applaud you looking to protect yourselves, this should have been the FIRST step. The liability on this could be huge. Trusts and licensing can save your butt should you ever be forced to protect yourself.
     
  7. Gunnut 45/454

    Gunnut 45/454

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    Though I would be concerned about Islamist your greatest threat is by the Anti-Christian left! Texas has been on the front lines lately with all the church fires! Go figure done by anti-Christian lefties! Since you already have LEO's involved I wouldn't worry about DPS stickin there nose in it! Press on and prepare!:supergrin:
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2010
  8. Willieboy

    Willieboy

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    As I said, I'm sure these issues of liability will be addressed. Why they weren't today, I don't know, except that maybe this was not an area in which this LEO was well-versed.

    We are in the very preliminary stages and are still learning.

    At the same time, a medical team is being established to care for anyone who has a heart attack, stroke, etc. We have medical people among the church members, but no equipment. Our church is relatively small but growing rapidly. We have much to do.
     
  9. Sharkey

    Sharkey

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    Every church should have some type of plan in place. They can call it a safety team if they prefer. Terrorism and Active Shooter are possibilities but the main problem is plain old crime: Theft, Burglary of Veh., and Parents picking up kids when they don't have custody are the big problems.

    I volunteered on our security team for awhile at a very big church. It was a combination of Contract Security -uniformed and plain clothes, LE that were members and volunteered (myself), and uniformed officers that were working off duty inside the church and directing traffic.

    If you are a relatively small church and keep everything on a even keel, I highly doubt that an Inv. from the state that licenses security companies will come knocking on your door.

    I'd do a monthly meeting and stay current on identifying trouble areas, removing individuals causing a problem, administering first aid, promoting safety and security in the kids area, etc.

    We had a crazy person run up on stage when the associate pastor was teaching. I wasn't there that night. Weird stuff does happen. Guys in the single department not getting the hint when turned down for a date from a female was another problem.
     
  10. txinvestigator

    txinvestigator

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    Two points

    You would be surprised. I have seen them show up at places that only had in-house security that never saw the public. All it takes is one disgruntled person to make a phone call.

    If something were to happen where security needed to act, the news coverage would get the attention of the state. Threads such as this could be used to show that they were not just ignorant of the law, but intentionally ignored it.
     
  11. IndyGunFreak

    IndyGunFreak

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    Please... so because you said it, it means its the law? So did he ignore the law, or did he ignore you?

    IGF
     
  12. noway

    noway

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    I say if church is so dangerous... Don't go to church or have faith in your god.
    :supergrin:
     
  13. Captain38

    Captain38

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    As I have been very much interested in church security for the past five years, I've made it my practice to personally follow-up on most church shootings, including the Wedgwood Baptist Church shooting in Ft. Worth, TX, which has been previously cited in detail.

    About three years ago, I spoke with both an associate pastor there and the first officer on the scene, an off-duty detective who just happened to live almost across the street from the church.

    Conclusion: There WAS NOT an off-duty officer present in the church congregation when this went down nor was one of the victims a law enforcement officer's child. The origin of this story apparently came from lecturer and writer Lt. Colonel Dave Grossman who has acknowledged to me that he must have gotten his facts confused!
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2010
  14. BleedNOrange

    BleedNOrange Go Vols

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    you're just full of useless information huh?
     
  15. IndyGunFreak

    IndyGunFreak

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    I say, if school is so dangerous, don't go to school and get an education.

    I say, if work is so dangerous, don't go to work and earn a living...

    I say, if doing everything is so dangerous, then just don't do anything.

    This isn't a church or a God issue, this is an issue of taking responsibility for yourself, and protecting yourself. I'd imagine 90% of us here would support such a measure.

    IGF
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2010
  16. Kadetklapp

    Kadetklapp Methberry PD

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    +1

    Today I received an invite to speak with members of the congregation at the church I attend occasionally about drug use in the community and what to look for (meth lab stuff, paraphenalia, etc). If this goes well, I will persue the possibility of establishing a small security counter-measure for this congregation.
     
  17. GLOCK35TX

    GLOCK35TX As seen on TV

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    Correction
    I say if church is so dangerous... Don't go to church or have faith in your God
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2010
  18. PhoneCop

    PhoneCop TeleDetective

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    Txinvestigator has been right on the money on far too many issues in the past for me to believe this a personal dangle wangle contest. He is aware of information and he is sharing it.

    I don't agree that licensing org is correctly reading the law (as Dragoon has illustrated) but that has never stopped petty bureaucrats from taking authority upon themselves and extenind their reach over areas they don't actually enjoy. That is not txinvestigtors fault. He is not wrong for sharing this information.

    He is sharing information and correctly pointing out that once aware of the licensing org's opinion, one can't claim ignorance. One's defense is only that the lic. org. is over-reaching and they have incorrectly applied the statute.
     
  19. wjv

    wjv Zip It Stan Lee.. . .

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    I'd actually like to know what they mean by "attack". . .

    There are a LOT of soft targets in the USA. Malls, Schools, Churches. Just watch the movie Invasion USA. . Yup it's a B- action flick. . . But the types of attacks they pulled off were easy, low risk and high impact. I'm actually quite surprised that these types of attacks haven't happened here already. For some reason, Al-Qaeda and other terrorist groups seems obsessed with transportation based targets. (Planes, trains, subways).
     
  20. noway

    noway

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    So for more useless information....

    So what this plan, how do you go about conducting your training for final preparations? or is this a just a plan on "paper"?

    I have about 4 churches in a 2mile radius of my home. No plan would stop me from grabbing a few handguns and walking in during sunday morning and start shooting or for a nut job strapped with a suicide bomb, detonate a bomb at front pew.

    Seem like plans are good, but prep work and training is much better.