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Discussion in 'The Okie Corral' started by Wulfenite, Jun 13, 2005.
Whoops....ran afoul the bad word sensor. You'll have to hand key the url replacing the **** with the F-word.
Wow, that didn't look good. Any info on that crash? Did the crew survive?
There were survivors. I think both pilots made it out, but the people in the back did not.
That is a Navy CH-46 Sea Knight, not a Chinook. Both are manufactured by Boeing, however the Ch-47 Chinook is a larger helicopter and operated by the Army. That incident is/was a dynamic rollover caused by the pilot attempting to take off with part of the landing gear fixed to the landing surface.
His left wheels cought the railing.
Not good flying!
Ouch! So the more power he applied to try to save it the worse it made the problem?
Was he hot dogging that approach or is that a reasonable closure rate.
I can't remember the exacts on it but that crash happened in 1999 off San Diego. Since I have the "owners manual" to the CH-46E next to my I'll give a quick reason why that happened. The static roll over in a CH-46 is 30 degrees (if the helo was tipped over on a platform and slowly tilted). The dynamic roll over (when the helo is in the air/one wheel on the ground) varies with conditions. This is caused by the upsetting rolling movement is provided by a side force on the wheel contacting the ground. The worst thing you can do is add collective which will only aggravate the situation.
The left main mount got caught up in the netting around the ship and when the pilot addded power it caused it to roll past the point where lateral control no longer was effective and the helo rolled over.
You don't realize how long the ch-46 actually is. It's almost 46 ft from nose to tail and from rotor tip to rotor tip is 84' length wise. The first time I landed one it definitly was much different than a bell 206 because you had so much more helo behind you. You actually lose sight of where you want to land when you're about 10ft above the landing point. The crew chief is calling out how far the rear wheels are above the deck when you get to that point.
Yes, increasing lift will make the aircraft roll past the critical roll angle at which point it is not possible to recover. The pilot was most likely not aware he had a landing gear caught in the wire.
The approach does seem rather fast in my opinion. Getting in a hurry can lead to complancency.
the CH-46 is power limited and an approch to the deck is often a necessity. In this case, however, the landing is at sea level and shouldn't require anymore power than take off. The approach is hot and shallow and low. Not a good combination, especially to a rolling deck. Once he hooked the safety fence with the aft gear, it would have taken extraordinary skill to first; recognize the problem, second; match the pitch and roll of the deck to recover the aircraft. The ALO should have been going berserk waving this guy off.
"The approach is hot and shallow and low."
That's for damned sure.
Holy cow that was a terrible approach.
Helopilot, what do you think would happen to you if you made an approach like that to an offshore platform on a check ride.
Hey M2, long time no hear. I imagine that I would have the pink slip before the rpm hit idle. My last check ride was supposed to be back to back 407/206 but Lionel broke the 206 (clipped winglet) so I had to finish at Cameron later. I thought I was back in flight school the way they ran the check ride. Oh well, roll with the deck and keep on keepin' on. Oh , I'm back in Port O' with George. He never changes. Later.
Was this the same incident?:
Ah, I hate seeing this video posted up, especially when no one knows the correct story, or even aircraft type. 7 people died, 11 survived the crash. It was a CH-46E from HMM-166, the Seaelk, out of MCAS Miramar, CA. The aircraft was approaching the deck of the supply ship USNS Pecos to do a VBSS, Visit, Board, Search, and Seizure, exercise. This exercise was part of the 15th MEU's (Marine Expeditionary Unit) SOCEX, or special operations cabable exercise, and they were being graded on its execution. From the video, you can see the a/c approach and hit the ship, then roll over, but that does not tell the entire story, nor does it show the 3 other videos that were recorded, but not released onto the internet. The aircraft was supposed to come to a hover over the deck of the ship, and the Force Recon members were to fast-rope down, while members of the Seal team in the water were to come from the bottom up. Cpl. Johns was the Crewchief that day, with Gunny Paige, the flightline NCOIC, riding along, and Sgt. Evers the A/O, or left gunner. In preperation for the fast rope, all members of the recon team on board were standing up, and all of them heavily loaded, to include items like power saws for breaching the ship. There gear was old, but they did there best, often using tape to old velcro fasters together, which worked, but made it much harder to get the gear off in an emergency. As the helicopter approached the ship, Cpl. Johns told the pilots they were coming in a little too fast. The pilot corrected, but not enough. The a/c impacted the deck of the ship, and the left rear main gear ran under the ships safety net. At this time, Sgt. Evers, on the left side, was thrown forward, and did not have a clear sight on the left main gear. The yellow shirt on the deck of the ship (aircraft director), was giving the waveoff signal, or do not land, get away from the ship for those that do not know, which by NATOPS (Naval Aviation Training Operating Procedures) says a waveoff by deck personell is ALWAYS mandatory. With the deck personel calling for a waveoff, the crew in back calling "pull-up" and "waveoff", the pilot, (I do not remember his name at this time, I want to say Capt. Lukehart, however, I know he was a WTI trained USMC Captain, with many flight hours and experience) did as he was trained, and pulled up on the collective to level the aircraft up. As he did so, the left main became fully entangled in the ship netting. The a/c reacted by rolling violently to the left. At this point, the pilot had the collective almost fully up in its travel, and had the cyclic full right. As the a/c rolled, you can see Cpl. Johns hanging on for his life in the crewdoor. What you cannot see in the grainy video, is SSGT. Archer, a member of the 1st Force Recon unit on board, jumped out of the Hell Hole, or the hole in the center of the a/c used for fastrope in the this case. He jumped clear of the a/c, managed to get his gear off, and was subsequently rescued. When the a/c impacted the water, everyone was thrown around quite severly. Some members of the Recon Team suffered major injury. Cpl. Johns, and both pilots, managed to exit the a/c pretty quickly. Sgt. Evers, and Gunny Paige, stayed inside the a/c to assit the recon marines getting out. Gunny Paige went to the rear of the A/C, where he was last seen, and subsequently found when the bodies were later recovered off the bottom of the Pacific. He stayed inside helping others out until his exit was blocked. Sgt. Evers was using his HEEDS bottle, or helicopter emergency egress device, an air bottle that provides roughly 2 minutes of usable air. His air ran out around 50-75 feet under, and a lung collapsed as he tried to breathe in. At this point, he exited the aircraft. A few of the Recon members had become entangled in the fast rope that was now strewn about the cabin, and did not get out. In total, 1 crewmember, 5 marine force recon members, and 1 sailor lost there lives. Those that did not make it out were recovered with a remote submarine from the aircraft, which was left on the bottom of the Pacific. In a subsequent investigation, the pilot and crew coordination were found to be at fault, but that does not tell the full story either. They found that the other ship that was traveling next to the USNS Pecos as a safety ship, provided an artificial horizon and presented a false picture to the pilot that he was higher than was actually the case. In future exercises, they changed the position of the rescue ship as not to interfere with the approach picture. They found Sgt. Evers at fault for not seeing the gear entangled and notifying the pilots. If you have ever crewed a CH-46, you know that trying to see around a .50 mounted in the window on the left side is next to impossible, unless you want to pull your helment off. He was also thrown forward when the a/c hit, and became a scapegoat IMO. The Helicopter Emergency Egress Lights, or HEELS, did not come on after the crash to illuminate the exits, they believed a wire had severed in the cockpit overhead during the crash. The surviving crewmembers were transfered out of HMM-166. Of them, only the Co-pilot, a new Lt, stayed in the Corps afterwards, the rest deciding to seperate. Those that could out of the Recon team, still deployed with the 15MEU in January of 2000 on the USS Bonhomne Richard. SSgt. Archer was one of them, along with the Capt who was there OIC. I think he has sustained some injuries, but recovered to deploy with his men. They made several other changes afterwards as well, including giving all passengers a HEEDS bottle, making everyone remain seatbelted until the a/c established a hover over the deck, ensuring that none of the windows were blocked anytime passengers were on board, and many, many safety classes and reviews. Here is a list of those who perished, RIP:
SSGT. VINCENT A. SABASTEANSKI, 1ST FORCE RECON - CUMBERLAND, ME
SSGT. DAVID E. GALLOWAY, 1ST FORCE RECON - OREGON CITY, OR
SSGT. JEFFERY R. STARLING, 1ST FORCE RECON - SOUTH DAYTON, FL
HM1 JAY J. ASIS, 1ST FORCE - QUEZON CITY, PHILIPPINES
CPL. MARK A. BACA, 1ST FORCE RECON - JEFFERSON CITY, CO
GYSGT JAMES P PAIGE, JR, CREW CHIEF, HMM 166 - MIDDLESEX, NJ
SSGT. WILLIAM C. DAME, EOD, MSSG-15 - YUMA, AZ
This was a horrible, horrible accident. I wish this video was never released, but, its out there. I transfered to HMM-166 from HMM-268 in January to replace one of the crewmembers. I volunteered for the position, and deployed with the Seaelk and 15th MEU for 6 months. I already knew all the aircrew members, I had gone to WTI in arizona with Cpl Johns as support personel, and I was very saddened by the loss of Gunny Paige. If you want to read more, there is a copy of a memorial to those lost here: http://www.specialoperations.com/Memorial/Force_Recon.htm
Semper Fi, Sgt. T.
Thanks for the complete story. It is a tragic one. However some of us do/did know the correct aircraft type, the aerodynamic problems that resulted and stated so in posted replies.
Thanks Sarge for the complete details. You obviously have a tremendous amount of knowledge about what happened. I thought that maybe you were on board.
I am deeply sorry that so many Marines lost their lives in this tragic accident. As with most aviation accidents, I hope that the knowledge gained from this crash will prevent similar incidents in the future.
I ran across this info in the link Sgt. T. provided:
The FRA has established a SCHOLARSHIP TRUST FOR THE SURVIVING CHILDREN of those tragically lost. The children are:
Frederick GALLOWAY, Age 7, Stetson GALLOWAY, Age 5 and William GALLOWAY, Age 4, all sons of SSgt. David E. GALLOWAY;
Nicholas SABASTEANSKI, Age 18 Months, son of SSgt. Vincent A. SABASTEANSKI;
Derek BACA, son of Cpl. Mark A. Baca.
HM1 Asis and SSgt Starling had no known children at this time.
Those desiring to make a donation to this Special Scholarship Trust may make their check or money order payable to "FRA SCHOLARSHIP TRUST FUND" and add a memo indicating if you want it donated to an individual "By Name" child or to be "Evenly Split" amongst all 5 children. No specific designation of donation will be evenly divided amongst all 5 children. Mail your donation(s) to:
15th MEU Memorial Fund
c/o: Force Recon Association
3784-B Mission Ave., PMB # 1775
Oceanside, CA 92054 - 1460
Or, you can contact:
Gary "Buddha" Marte
Major, USMC, Retired
Executive Director, Force Recon Association
Office (760) 439 - 8633
Home (760) 439 - 6888
FAX (760) 725 - 3221
Was not trying to jump on anyone, the incident is just rather close and personal to me. If you knew the number of times Ive ran across this video with people making obsene remarks or just talking out there butts (not that it was happening here)... Eh, I guess this video will always bother me.