Caliber wars - new info to me

Discussion in 'General Firearms Forum' started by Glock!9, Jan 23, 2020.

  1. Deltic

    Deltic

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    You are not really giving enough detail to let us know exactly what you disagree with. If you think the video in the OP overstated the effectiveness of the .22 I suggest you go back to about 3:45 where he points out that the mouse gun failure rate can be 2x or 3x higher than for .380 and up.
     
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  2. sciolist

    sciolist On the Border

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    Just stick with 9mm, and learn to shoot.
     
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  3. Deltic

    Deltic

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    That is pretty much what I got out of the two videos.
     
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  4. 0311INF

    0311INF

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    Maybe so. But... 9mm-just like any cartridge-needs velocity to expand, and to actually utilize the "modern bullet technology" that has made it a viable choice in the last 20 years. So 9 is fine, as long as the barrel is 3.5" long and ammunition is carefully selected.
     
  5. Teecher45

    Teecher45

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    I believe he also states something like the mouseguns (in which the .22 is included) is not only a bad choice, it’s the worst choice by far.
    A lot of people focus on the facts/data that shows the .22 has killed a lot of people and correlate that with the author stating it is as effective as a service caliber (and he clearly goes out of his way to debunk that). So then, they postulate that the data is wrong and somehow equate the mouseguns to service calibers; they’re trying to feed their own agenda.
    The .22 has killed a lot of people, the author can’t just change those numbers to fit an agenda.


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  6. Teecher45

    Teecher45

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    Got any data to back that up?


    View: https://youtu.be/xc5n_JsY3aw


    And


    View: https://youtu.be/zYTd1lNx_TQ


    I used to think the same thing, except said 4” barrels.
    Then I started researching...


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  7. China boy

    China boy

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    As of right now I have not watched the video. I might later. Why do you ask?
     
  8. Teecher45

    Teecher45

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    Just curious.
    Data is only pointless to those that already have their mind made-up.


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  9. Teecher45

    Teecher45

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    So you’re equating challenging authority to questioning real-world, repeatable, scientific data?
    Seems like different things to me.


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  10. China boy

    China boy

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    I'm not following you?
     
  11. cowboy1964

    cowboy1964

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    Shot placement isn't the idea that you can put bullets precisely where you want them, ie. in the heart or brain stem. It's that where the shot hits, along with penetration, are the most important factors in determining how effective the hit is.
     
  12. alnicoG22

    alnicoG22

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    Data is good. I like data. I disagree with a blanket statement, "do not question." I carry Federal HST.
     
  13. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday CLM

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    Choice of ammo, its velocity, shot placement, number of shots fired...ALL of that is worthless, if you don't FIRST HAVE a reliable firearm. Do you trust your gun to go BANG instead of CLICK? Are you sure that hammer spring won't break as you pull the trigger, desperately trying to save your life, or the life of your family? Will the mag drop loose or the baseplate pop off and scatter your rounds all over the ground? How tough and reliable is your firearm? I'll admit, I carried a KelTec P32 for years, mostly because I hated the weight of a bigger gun and I could conceal it well...but when I constantly read about their springs breaking and mags dropping, I wonder how much of a chance I'll have with it, when I might be in a situation where I only get one shot, one chance to save my life...so I'll deal with the added weight for a 9mm from a gun I completely trust.

    There's a reason we all paid more money for our Glock. We trust it.
     
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  14. NU2GLOCK22

    NU2GLOCK22

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    What is a very good premium 9mm SD ammo.
     
  15. ithaca_deerslayer

    ithaca_deerslayer

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    I think the methodology, analysis, and conclusions are crap. Well, somewhere between crap and just ok.

    The effectiveness of a given caliber and specific load selection are not being very directly measured. One could say is what gel tests are for. But gel tests are just one medium (and lucky if any two testers use the same criteria).

    With data referred to in the video, as acknowledged in the video, there are lot of factors with regard to where someone was hit, how direct the shot was, the specific load used, barrel length, and difference between the physical persons and their reactions.

    So as we move farther away from those varied "facts", the analysis becomes more and more subjective.

    The "doesn't matter" conclusions are not fact, but rather based on a subjective analysis of incomplete facts, using some sort of make the data fit methodology.

    The basic conclusion of don't use mouse caliber because of the comparatively high failure rate meets common sense approval. But we don't know what was involved with those shots and why they were failures. It is only through our "common sense" that we think we know.

    Take this type of study along with gel tests and we think we have pretty strong conclusions.

    I still think gel tests and accepted criteria under reward penetration. For some shooting events, that penetration is going to be needed. There is a real difference between calibers and specific loads. Just because those differences get washed away by someone's study of over a thousand shootings does not mean those differences are not there, or that they are not important. It could mean merely that the data wasn't detailed enough or that the methodolgy wasn't up to the job.

    I say this all while being a 9mm fan. The guns I carry most are 9mm. But I don't believe they are just as effective as other calibers. Instead, I see 9mm as having the right balance of pluses and minuses for me. The big pluses relate to the small and easy to conceal guns that are also easy to shoot well with. That combined with the sense that 9mm has enough power to get the job done when the right shots are made.

    For shots that are more marginal in where the hit, or the angle/position of the target is more difficult to reach vitals, or the target is larger/stronger and more determined, the 9mm I carry will not be as effective some better calibers.

    We can begin suspect these differences by looking at the gel test results. If my 9mm specific load, for example, expands to .47" diameter and goes 18" deep, there may be a situation I will wish I had some other caliber with a load expanding to .55" diameter going 18" deep. Or .47" going 24" deep.

    Who knows. Those more powerful loads may become important to me when the shots are marginal and the target is more difficult.

    I often deer hunt with a .30-06. I could use my .223 or .243 or 7.62x39 effectively to hunt deer. But my belief is there are some situations where I will be glad my shot had a bigger more powerful bullet. There are even more poweful rifles, which I don't use. Just as I think the 9mm has the best mix of compromise and effectiveness for my self-defense, so to do I think the same of .30-06 for my deer hunting. But in some situations a .338 WinMag would do better :)
     
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  16. Teecher45

    Teecher45

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    The CCW’s I carry most often are in the .40, but have no problem carrying a 9mm in the colder months, for the same reasons you stated.
    The G-27 is what I carry most often (because of size), I traded into it, I would have made that trade if it had been a G-26.
    The G-45 that gets carried in the colder months is covered by a jacket or sweatshirt. Man, I love that pistol, but it’s so much easier to conceal the 27.
    They’re both loaded with premium ammo and I am equally comfortable with both.


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  17. Teecher45

    Teecher45

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    There are a few, but I usually stick with Gold Dots or HST’s.


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  18. Teecher45

    Teecher45

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    Just referencing a point you made earlier, you mentioned something about data being pointless.
    Forget about it.


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  19. Borg Warner

    Borg Warner

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    The Ellifritz "study" has no more validity than the Marshall & Sanow study of the early 1980's and has a smaller and more unverified database.

    Marshall & Sanow's study has been debunked in many ways and for one, for never having performed a statistical certainty analysis of the data. Both studies present raw data, which is questionably valid in a non-specific context.

    Ellifritz is a self-styled "expert" who is simply going back to the late seventies and re-inventing the wheel all over again and his most zealous followers are taking it as gospel because it re-affirms their assumptions.
     
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  20. camelsfly

    camelsfly Previously Lloyd Elliott

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    ^