Caliber wars - new info to me

Discussion in 'General Firearms Forum' started by Glock!9, Jan 23, 2020.

  1. Glock!9

    Glock!9

    Messages:
    3,362
    Likes Received:
    262
    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2001
    Location:
    South Eastern PA
    I’m not new to guns, in my 40’s been shooting since I was 12 and been on this site since 2001. I always leaned towards shot placement being the most important factor, then velocity. This is a video I have never seen, maybe it’s been posted (jambog), I’m not sure. What are your thoughts on this?

    notice the lack of 10mm and .357 sig. I’m going to assume, it’s a lack of data more than any other factor.



    View: https://youtu.be/CSlN8d97Y4M
     
    DannyB likes this.
  2. Gray Dood

    Gray Dood

    Messages:
    3,614
    Likes Received:
    8,099
    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2017
    My thoughts?

    Carry what you are most accurate with in .38 and up, avoid confrontations both verbal and physical when you can, and don't get drawn into caliber wars on the interwebz.
     
    Big1, 1eyedjack01, AWMP and 19 others like this.

  3. Blanton

    Blanton

    Messages:
    1,194
    Likes Received:
    1,398
    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2018
    Location:
    Perry Hall, Md
    Again, what's already been said dozens of times......
     
  4. TheDreadnought

    TheDreadnought

    Messages:
    7,856
    Likes Received:
    13,116
    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2014
    This is just a video presentation of some widely disseminated paper studies that have been discussed at length.

    To your point above, when discussing handguns, the things that matter are:

    1. Placement
    2. Penetration
    WAY after those two is caliber/expansion.

    Velocity is completely irrelevant as a stand alone factor in handguns. It's just something that might contribute to penetration. If two bullets penetrate to the same depth, and expand to the same degree. Velocity is completely irrelevant.

     
  5. Dr_fast

    Dr_fast

    Messages:
    994
    Likes Received:
    1,070
    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2017
    According to federal, I think I still have the video but I’m not sure, if the velocity doesn’t meet or exceed 2200 ft./s it’s insignificant. Keep in mind that they make, by far, the most police loads. So there is no reason to question what they say. Also, the video you reference, tends to back up the FBI report that was why they switched to 9 mm.
    Bottom line is, handguns are not all that effective regardless of what caliber or velocity you get to unless you exceed what is above. Many people have their opinions, and they’re certainly entitled of them, but the people in the know who are actually seeing information that we’re not necessarily seeing share the FBI’s opinion. Like I said, anybody’s entitled their opinion, but the opinion that matters to me is the ones who actually have the real life experience.
     
    45caldan, Glock!9 and Teecher45 like this.
  6. Trucker3573

    Trucker3573

    Messages:
    1,093
    Likes Received:
    851
    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2018
    ZZZ....if you are carrying something when it hits the fan you are ahead of the game and better off than the vast majority of people out there. These debates are literal snoozers. I say carry what you want I’ll carry what I want and we will just shut up...LOL


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
    Big1, Joshhtn, DocPoison and 2 others like this.
  7. G26-Has-my-6

    G26-Has-my-6

    Messages:
    6,876
    Likes Received:
    15,227
    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2017
    Location:
    Twin Cities, MN
    yep, 22LR, king of the hill!

    nuff said
     
  8. Teecher45

    Teecher45

    Messages:
    3,396
    Likes Received:
    1,523
    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2010
    I don’t understand what you’re trying to say.
    You’ve switched to .22 LR for your CCW?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  9. G26-Has-my-6

    G26-Has-my-6

    Messages:
    6,876
    Likes Received:
    15,227
    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2017
    Location:
    Twin Cities, MN
    if you believe that then you must also believe this "scientific" study...
     
  10. Lil

    Lil

    Messages:
    668
    Likes Received:
    798
    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2016
    Please explain what you mean here.
     
  11. LostinTexas

    LostinTexas Exploring Alternate Routes

    Messages:
    5,434
    Likes Received:
    9,304
    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2016
    Location:
    East Texas
    I love the "Shot Placement" remarks. I don't disagree, but I would love to see if one of these marksmen could put a round into a business card under duress. Well, actually, I hope no one ever needs to test that, but you get the idea.
    There isn't a magic bullet or caliber, especially a service pistol caliber. Get to 460 or 454, and it gets interesting, but turning one loose from a reveler does as well.
    In the end, you should never know about the fabled one shot stop. You should put as many rounds in target as possible as quickly as possible, until it is no longer a threat. A deaded guy can take you with him.
     
    gh1138 and Deltic like this.
  12. LostinTexas

    LostinTexas Exploring Alternate Routes

    Messages:
    5,434
    Likes Received:
    9,304
    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2016
    Location:
    East Texas
    About 2200 fps is the threshold when a temporary expansion cavity becomes a permanent expansion cavity. That is "the" velocity that many agree carries enough to do more reliable and real damage in the temp cavity area.Under +/- 2200 fps , velocity is pretty insignificant in the damage category. Throw in better ballistic coefficients of rifle rounds and you have something to work with.
    In other words, the pistol has to hit it to damage it. Get to the 2200 FPS range and damage is possible from the shock wave without the actual projectile making contact.
     
    Teecher45 likes this.
  13. Dr_fast

    Dr_fast

    Messages:
    994
    Likes Received:
    1,070
    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2017
    Hopefully this link will copy and you can watch the video for yourself if you have about 12 minutes. Probably letting them explain it is better than me.

    If you don’t have that time, four minutes and 50 seconds and about seven minutes are the two key areas to watch. I would say though, the whole video is really great! And as I said, these guys know what they’re talking about and have real life experiences with law-enforcement and FBI and what really works. It’s not just their opinions.


    View: https://youtu.be/T6kUvi72s0Y
     
    NFEDERIC and Teecher45 like this.
  14. Teecher45

    Teecher45

    Messages:
    3,396
    Likes Received:
    1,523
    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2010
    I’m not sure what I believe about your ccw, you didn’t answer my question.
    But I think I understand what you’re getting at.
    Of course I believe this study, I have no reason not to.
    It’s real-world data accumulated from over 1700 shootings. Should I believe that much data is insignificant?
    I’m guessing you’re taking what you “feel” over the facts gathered from the study. If it’s bigger/faster it has to be better, right? Except we’re seeing that just isn’t the case. Most knowledgeable shooters understand accurate rounds on target wins the fight. Not an insignificantly bigger/faster bullet.

    And they are facts, whether you believe them or not.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  15. China boy

    China boy

    Messages:
    2,206
    Likes Received:
    1,385
    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2013
    .22 kills tons of people yet you would never carry it for defense. So I think he means these videos and threads can somewhat be pointless and are mostly keyboard debate. Its like discussing which super model is hotter. Truth is, they are all hot.
     
    CAcop likes this.
  16. CAcop

    CAcop

    Messages:
    29,046
    Likes Received:
    16,417
    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2002
    Location:
    California
    The hot chick analogy is good because no matter how great they all got some drama.

    .22LR can have reliability issues.

    .45 ACP can have trouble expanding due to low velocities.

    9mm can overexpand.

    5.56 is going fast enough to cause secondary trauma via stretch cavity but you chop the barrel too much you have to get picky about ammo. Not to mention good luck pocket carrying.
     
    rayzer007 likes this.
  17. alnicoG22

    alnicoG22

    Messages:
    1,541
    Likes Received:
    2,486
    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2016
    Location:
    Arkansas
    If authority is not questioned, no progress will ever be made. You know the Earth is flat and the center of the solar system, don't you?
     
  18. fastbolt

    fastbolt

    Messages:
    24,406
    Likes Received:
    24,740
    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2002
    Location:
    CA Central Coast
    More range training and practice time (to practice what you learned in training, at a minimum).

    Maybe even look to attend some properly supervised competition shooting events (IDPA, GSSF or higher?), to practice gun handling, manipulation and accuracy when on-the-clock and experiencing the stress of being observed by both other competitors and perhaps spectators. (A little moderate range stress can have a startling effect on some folks. ;) )

    'Real world' data collection of LE OIS and crime incidents? Hell, pick whatever 'theory' is of personal interest, and you could cherry pick a dozen or three examples that support your pet theory or preference. The contrary is also true, of course, and this was frankly acknowledged back when the FBI was involved in their new testing and wound ballistics studies at the end of the 80's. What's changed?

    One of the things that's remained somewhat of a 'constant' over the last few decades is that better practical accuracy in LE OIS incidents has usually been connected to better hits. ;)

    Better hits (meaning those hitting and causing significant damage to critical tissues, structures and organs) has reportedly been observed to be connected to faster incapacitation and/or the cessation of an attacker's ability to remain capable of continued violent volitional actions.

    Still just a handgun, though.

    Caliber is just a minor an aspect of gear. Gear use, on the other hand, and the gear user's acquired knowledge (and understanding) of all aspects involved in the decision whether or not to use deadly force (think laws), and the skillset involved in effectively doing so ... are still arguably a bit higher on the "to do" list than which of the common service/defensive calibers may be chosen (or required of someone to use).
     
  19. Dr_fast

    Dr_fast

    Messages:
    994
    Likes Received:
    1,070
    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2017
    If you want to question someone who has real world data and experience, you go right ahead, that’s your prerogative. I see your example, but I don’t think it applies here.
    just like the other study, where 1700 people weighed in based on being shot, I think that’s data that is hard to argue with.
    I don’t know about you, but I’ve never shot anybody. Let alone 1700 people. And federal develops ammunition based on observations from the FBI and police who also have shot many more people than I have.
     
    Teecher45 likes this.
  20. Teecher45

    Teecher45

    Messages:
    3,396
    Likes Received:
    1,523
    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2010
    Serious question, did you watch the video?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk