If I buy a Saiga 12 ga and its banned can I keep it?
There are no "banned" features, per se. They are features the ATF considers to be not of a sporting use. What is banned is the import of shotguns not of sporting use.It is unlikely under a Republican congress that we will see another ban. However, the ATF may further restrict "non sporting" type shotguns from being imported. On the other hand the Saiga shotgun as imported does have any banned features.
WHAT? A stock Saiga-12 for $899? I picked one up this week for a 'project' for a $450. That came to about $477 with tax.I checked with a dealer, he had one in stock with a $899 pricetag!
FALSEBefore you can legally use a magazine that holds more than 5 rounds in any imported shotgun, you must convert it with US-made parts e.
FALSE BACK AT YA!!!FALSE
An "assault shotgun" subject to 922(r) must be semi-automatic, and possess 2 or more "evil" features from this list:
Yes, a 5 round magazine has a fixed capacity of 5 rounds, but a detachable mag-fed shotgun has no fixed capacity, unless the magazine is permanently attached to the shotgun. The "fixed capacity of more than 5 rounds" feature indicates a shotgun that has a fixed capacity, i.e., a tube fed shotgun.FALSE BACK AT YA!!!
A Saiga with any magazine of a capacity greater than 5 shells violates the last two. A 5 round magazine has a "fixed capacity" of 5 rounds. It does not mention a "fixed magazine."
From the ATF:
"A shotgun having a magazine capacity of more than 5 shells is prohibited from importation as a sporting firearm under Title 18 United States Code (U. S. C.), § 925(d)(3). Therefore it is a violation Title 18, U. S. C. § 922(r) to assemble such a shotgun from imported parts as provided in Title 27, Code of Federal Regulations (CFR), Part 479 (formerly Part 178) § 478.39."
Did the actual position statement from the ATF not sink in!?! No matter what you want to believe on the matter, it is VERY clear what the ATF thinks. What I am telling you is a FACT not open for your poorly educated opinion on the matter, but let us cover that anyway...Yes, a 5 round magazine has a fixed capacity of 5 rounds, but a detachable mag-fed shotgun has no fixed capacity, unless the magazine is permanently attached to the shotgun. The "fixed capacity of more than 5 rounds" feature indicates a shotgun that has a fixed capacity, i.e., a tube fed shotgun.
The code you referenced, a shotgun having a mag capacity of more than 5 shells, is clearly referencing a tube-fed shotgun, since a mag fed shotgun by itself has a capacity of one, the chamber, and the code does not say "A shotgun capable of using a 6+ round mag" or "a shotgun when used with a 6+ round mag" is prohibited. Any mag fed shotgun is capable of accepting any magazine made for that shotgun, from 1 to 100 rounds. If that were prohibited, the Saiga 12 would never be imported in the first place.
Did the actual position statement from the ATF not sink in!?! No matter what you want to believe on the matter, it is VERY clear what the ATF thinks. What I am telling you is a FACT not open for your poorly educated opinion on the matter, but let us cover that anyway...
Whether or not a shotgun has a TUBULAR magazine or a DETACHABLE magazine, the chamber is still the same +1, so that has no bearing on anything.
A TUBULAR magazine is no more fixed in capacity than a DETACHABLE magazine. You can add a larger TUBULAR magazine or a larger DETACHABLE magazine to a shotgun after import to get greater than 5 rounds in the magazine. Both are in violation of 922(r) PER THE ATF.
"Fixed capacity" only refers to the magazine capacity at import, not the shotgun's potential. If it were otherwise, then NO magazine-fed shotguns could be imported for the reasons stated above. You CANNOT add capacity above 5+1 rounds to a shotgun in its imported form. Period. You must convert it with enough US-made parts to make it comply with 922(r).
Conversely, if the capacity of a DETACHABLE magazine did not matter, then the Saigas would be imported with the factory 8 rounder that everyone pays beaucoup bucks for. Izhmash had to make 5 rounders to comply with US import laws. That is the only reason they even exist.
Now, the ATF isn't going to go busting in your door at night because they saw you on YouTube with an MD20 hanging from a stock Saiga 12, but please, don't spew garbage that you know nothing about as advice for others.
Again, you are welcome to take this discussion over to the 922(r) section of the Saiga forum where people who deal with this every day for a living hang out, but I'm sure you already know how that will go.
:supergrin:
For anyone else who is interested in Saigas (shotguns or rifles), that is where to go to learn everything you need to know before buying one. They can be finicky pains in the butt requiring a LOT of effort to get running right, but anyone with a drill and a dremel can get the job done using the videos and guides referenced there. Saiga shotguns are great pieces of equipment, but unless you only plan to use magnum loads, you need to know what you're getting into before rushing out to buy one.
Plus, you need to learn about 922(r) from a source other than GT.
:wavey:
Did your grade school english classes not sink in!?! Perhaps you need to brush up on your reading comprehension.Did the actual position statement from the ATF not sink in!?! No matter what you want to believe on the matter, it is VERY clear what the ATF thinks. What I am telling you is a FACT not open for your poorly educated opinion on the matter, but let us cover that anyway...
Some people's children. :shakehead:Good luck with that!
:wavey:
WOW! $249 for a kit? You can buy the stuff yourself and do it for about $100. Pistol grip, fire control group and stock from Tapco. If you don't like tapco stuff just buy regular AK stuff. It is pretty easy to do.Ok....found a source for a Saiga 12. Order is placed.
Next up is which conversion kit to get. I'm leaning towards this one....any comments, suggestions, or thoughts? Thanks..
http://www.mississippiautoarms.com/saiga-12-pistol-grip-conversion-kit-with-tromix-stock-p-839.html
(will be getting the foldable. And a front grip. Thoughts on 7.5, 8.5 or 9.5 inch length?)
THANKS!
As you can see from the date of the post you quote, this information is over two years old. They have realized they were in error, and their current position can be found on the MD Arms website.http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=23910
Q: Is this magazine 922r compliant?
A: Yes, every component of this magazine is made in the United States of America. It is compliant and legal with ANY Saiga-12 firearm. It counts as 3 US parts in the Federal guidelines on 922r compliant.
Thanks for pointing that out about the dates. That slipped by me. I just bought an S12 and will probably order a drum magazine in the near future. Am I correct in thinking that as long as I don't attach the mag to the gun, I'm not breaking any laws? (I don't have a convenient place to shoot the shotgun at the moment and hope to send it off for some modifications pretty soon, after which time the gun would definitely be 922r compliant regardless of magazine.)As you can see from the date of the post you quote, this information is over two years old. They have realized they were in error, and their current position can be found on the MD Arms website.
"Q: Is this magazine 922r compliant?
A: Yes, All of Md Arms items are made in the United States of America. The drum counts as 3 US parts in the Federal guidelines on 922r compliant."
You need four US parts for an assembled Saiga 12 to be 922r compliant, per the checklist I linked above. If you want to hang an MD20 from your stock Saiga 12, just buy a cheap US-made hand guard, and you're fully compliant. With the MD20 selling for $120 these days, a $40 hand guard is a relatively small price to pay to be 922r compliant while using it.
If the 4 part count is correct and the magazine counts as 3, you should be able to buy a US made muzzle attachment (flash hider or breaching attachment) for $35 and be legal. If anybody wants to confirm/deny that, please speak up.Thanks for pointing that out about the dates. That slipped by me. I just bought an S12 and will probably order a drum magazine in the near future. Am I correct in thinking that as long as I don't attach the mag to the gun, I'm not breaking any laws? (I don't have a convenient place to shoot the shotgun at the moment and hope to send it off for some modifications pretty soon, after which time the gun would definitely be 922r compliant regardless of magazine.)