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Discussion in 'Black Rifle Forum' started by mangkukhan, Jan 18, 2010.
just curious what was the ideal twist everyone was hoping for???
I have no interest in spending that much mula on another 5.56 AR.
I'll stick with my Noveske's
The .gov will buy it with your money at the exploded prices forged by the Magpul/Cerbus union.
1 in 7 probably...
1/7 twist is generally considered ideal for heavier combat type weighted loads (62gr-77gr, etc.) BUT since Bushmaster typically uses 1/9 twist in their ARs they probably figured they'd just use the same barrels they had already. Which should have made it cost less, but apparently they didn't think so. Guess they believed people would be dumb enough to over pay for an Adaptive Combat Rifle with a 1/9 twist and a fixed stock. Just plain nutty.
Here's Remington's promotion video...before it gets pulled!
I too was very interested in this when it was the Magpul Masada. Now I can sum up my feelings on it in one word......"Meh!"
I just got back from Shot, and the ACR was the biggest disappointment there. Yes, the design is very intelligent. Yes, it is very modular. However, everything else was bad news.
The Remington version will only be available to military and probably only in select fire.
The Bushmaster version will be the LE and civilian version, and comes with a 1:9 twist M4 (heavy) barrel with no chrome lining. The rep said it does have a "secret coating" in it. I asked if it was a hard coating or a metal treatment like nitriding, and he said he couldn't say, but it was good. I asked, "So it's better than chrome lining, but you can't tell me what it is or why I should believe you?" He just shrugged. Okay. I asked him about the logic of a 1:9" twist, and he just shrugged that one off also. Also, the pricing rumors are correct. The model that everyone will want with the folding stock and railed forend does have an MSRP of over $3000. Finally, they added enough metal up front with the heavy barrel, QD ratchet system, and beefed up forend that it now specs out at 8.25 muzzle heavy pounds.
Rumor at the show was that the MagPul people are pissed off to an epic degree about the whole thing, and that the .308 caliber Masoud will be either produced in house or outside by just about anybody but Remington/Bushmaster. Imagine that. They took a platform with awesome potential and turned it into a white elephant.
Best news I've heard all day!
Yeah, but keep in mind that I didn't hear it from MagPul themselves. They were very tight lipped about the ACR project. It was other large vendors who knew the MagPul people personally who told me that information second hand. I would consider it reliable, but it's not directly from the primary source.
$3061 for the "enhanced" version???
That's what I've been wondering. Most folks have been quite fond of Magpul to at least some degree, but they certainly took a massive hit with this debacle. Why they chose a company that did the same thing to a 308 AR is beyond me. Hell, even if they'd given it to Oly the specs would still suck, but at least they could have done it for under the claimed price point.
That's the thing with the whole ordeal. If they had built it with mo better specs they could have gotten away with a somewhat higher price, or if they'd hit the price point they could have Bushmastered a spec or two. They doubled the price point and Bushmastered the crap out of the specs, and two wrongs don't make a right.
A 308 ACR would be sweet if they could do it properly and actually hit a determined price point.
That's what Bushmaster told me yesterday at SHOT. Dealer price is high enough that the good version can't sell for less than about $2800 on the open market. The "base model" might actually retail for about the same price as a SCAR ($2500 or so), but it won't have a railed forend or folding/adjustable stock. Remington/Bushmaster have lost their minds. Unless they nail a big government contract, they'll wind up with a huge warehouse full of overpriced ACR's within a few months of release.
They must be out of their collective minds.
I'm LEO, so I can offer some perspective there ... not a cop I know can afford something in that price range, and 99% of us are not allowed or don't need select fire ... so there goes the Remington version. And then when you consider BOTH of them, or the ACR in general are unproven, heavy rifles, why would we buy one? A cop doesn't make much, and for half the price of an ACR, the same cop can get a great AR and great optic. The ACR looks like it comes with a set of cheap Magpul BUIS.
I thought the original Masada design didn't have a quad rail forend, but a more standard one you could attach rails as needed to. What happened there, and how did a plastic and alloy rifle somehow manage to end up approaching the weight of my M14?
Wow. The Remington is priced way too high for cops, and the military for general use and issue, and the Bushmaster is heavy and offers stupid things like 1/9 barrels. Plus you pay over 3k for a folding stock version, rails and a nifty flash hider?
What an insult. Shame on Magpul for selling out on their original design to "Freedom Group" or WTF ever they are this year. Somebody up there needs to lay off the crack pipe, and realize they are charging above premium for an unproven, bastardized piston rifle in a market loaded with them, and that the current champ, the AR15 is not going to be even remotely threatened by their product as is. Hell, right now I am not even sure it gives the FN-SCAR or HK-416 much to worry about.
Maybe if that "thing" they call the ACR was anything like Masada Magpul hyped, I would buy one. A 12-1500 dollar, truly adaptable combat rifle would be something to be reckoned with.
I suspect that was what Cerberus was aiming for. My theory is that Cerberus placed the price so high so that they would not compete with their Bushmaster AR offerings. "Shrubhamster" is still an AR company, and I think they deliberately did this because they did not want the ACR diminishing their primary market.
Its a stupid, bad business decision, but I suspect the above (in addition to tooling costs and R&D) had something to do with it.
I was talking with a guy the other day, and he mentioned something along the lines of:
Cerberus/Freedom Group sees the plans and prototype of the Masada, and promptly buys it in order to keep the thing from ever effectively being marketed, therefor protecting the Bushmaster AR line from competition. He felt that the company was probably afraid of a plastic rifle that was cheaper and and more reliable than an AR. No proof the ACR is, but yeah, he tends to play these types of scenarios out for fun. Your post reminded me of that.
Whatever the reason, they are collectively insane.
Hitler just found out about it too.
I doubt that very much.
Cerberus, exists only to make money. Done right, the ACR may have been the new rifle to replace the AR. Being that only bushhampster can make it. It would have sold like hot cakes. Even at 2K for the enhanced, it would sell like hot cakes. Hell I would have money down at my dealer for two before they hit the streets.
They took a good design, and gave it to Bush hampster. That was the problem, this wasn't intentional pricing out of the market to sell AR's this was sheer stupidity.