Glock Forum - GlockTalk banner

1 - 19 of 19 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,022 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
In my quest to separate myself from disposable income short, of having my own personal live ammo range I’ve been on the look out for a reactive laser type set up that can essentially duplicate a Steel Challenge and GSSF course of fire to the point I could score myself just like a match.

I think I’m going to get there, but I am skeptical and taking it one step at a time.

The only turn key solution I seem to have found are LEO and military trainers costing thousands and thousands of dollars. These don’t even have competition courses of fire.

My latest research (stumbled upon with the purchase of a SIRT laser training pistol) seems to be a multi vendor solution.

Next there seems to be a software solution that turns any modern computer with a webcam into the shot timing device. Once set up, the user defines the target zones the webcam is pointed at.

Then, finally, there is a vendor that makes “banners” simulating Steel Challenge, GSSF, and USPSA qualifier courses of fire to be used with laser pistols. This product of course is a great convenience but can be worked around by the end user making their own scaled targets and course of fire layout.

Put these three together:
Laser pistol
Computer timer and webcam
Computer software defined around banner layout

One could effectively turn a spare room into a digital shooting gallery and score simulated matches.

******

Has anyone done this?

Right now I’ve got a SIRT on order to replace my POS Laserlyte pistol that died on me, but I have six Laserlyte reactive targets, and a timer that can register the target pings. So effectively I have a quasi Plate Rack.

My next step after getting confidence it’s working for me would be the training software and webcam, then finally, if I’m just too lazy to make my own scaled courses of fire then buy the banners.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,192 Posts
Software is good for sight picture and dry fire, but live fire is about that plus managing recoil. Your best bet is to check the local clubs who host competitions, and get training from an IDPA Master or USPSA Master/GM. They usually only charge $60-100 for a few hours, you get the fundamentals/transitions/movement, the same level as the big name instructors in a competition setting. In the end it's all the same thing, speed and accuracy. As we say in USPSA, DVC, Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas” (accuracy, power, speed). But it's really Celeritas, Celeritas, Celeritas!

At the end of the day, you want to be a better competition shooter, you have to shoot matches, allot, and practice drills in between. There is no substitute for live fire. First time I shot the World Championship Steel Challenge in 1992 (the largest money match in the world packed with top shooters) saw a group of guys who had been there for a whole week and ran over 6,000 rounds each preparing for the match. And here I thought 800 rounds the week before practicing the 7 stages would get me thru....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,022 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Right now I'm a "B" class shooter Steel Challenge and GSSF Master at the 3rd-5th place level on a good day.

I'm a stay at home dad with a 2 and 4 year old. "Range" time is only feasible when the spouse is home with them. Now, when they BOTH eventually get in school, then I am golden for a 4 hour block at my club range multiple days a week.

I think I have realistic measured competitive goals.

Right now, my goals are:
1) win a GSSF Master Division outright
2) eventually win in every GSSF Master Division
3) win Match Meister in GSSF

Even I know GSSF isn't big leagues, but that's my goal.

Steel Challenge is my local game. IDAP/IPSC are just too far away to really be worth it.

Of course, I continue to work towards becoming a Steel Challenge GM in either Production or Single Stack, heck even Rim Fire.

I like to get in ONE match a month.

********

Anyway, it's occurred to me I've hit a limit with my skill given my practice regiment with just dry fire and no timing devices with my limited ability to even handle a gun while home (if they kids are up I have to lock myself in the garage, AND the wife has to be watching them)

I mentioned getting a timer in the last week and it has been dramatically eye opening just adding a timer to simple dry fire.

1) I was giving up 0.5 seconds spending too much time acquiring the first target from the low ready taking as much as 1.5 to make a perfect shot. I got that down to 1.0

2) Then I noticed I was waiting for the BEEP sound to STOP before I moved. Once I started moving at the START of the BEEP I shaved another 0.2 seconds. So now I'm at 0.7-0.8 seconds to get the first shot off (for a 25 yard target).

For GSSF, multiply that out 10 strings (first shot) I think I just picked up 7 seconds without actually even firing a shot any differently. That still only puts me stronger in the "share the wealth" range for GSSF, and not a dominant one.

********
I do have an USPSA GM friend and mentor. I was looking for the next level of training devices to enhance my repetitions without using ammo.

I'm of the opinion that generally any measured and focused practice is important. I was wonder if the products out there have been used by anyone in the mentioned combinations. They are essentially Duck Hunt for Nitendo.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
505 Posts
I just got the new Dry Fire mag with MantisX. I am really liking it.
https://www.dryfiremag.com/product/dryfiremag-with-mantisx-for-glock-9-40-357-45-g-a-p/

I also have some of the target banners. I built some stands out of 3/4" PVC for them but didn't glue any of the joints so I can store them easier. The boys like to use them for their nerf guns too!

It's nice to be able to set up a course and run it on the Mantis X timer with dry fire mag. The Mantis doesn't register your accuracy when you are moving or doing transitions but does register draw time, splits and total time which is what I was looking for.

20200515_212512.jpg
 

·
Florida's Left Coast
Joined
·
9,515 Posts
...One could effectively turn a spare room into a digital shooting gallery and score simulated matches.
******
Has anyone done this?.
I have every one of those solutions you've mentioned... but don't have the time at the moment for a more detailed explanation of where I'm at with each. I use some for my drills, and some for initial training of a group of ladies I've been coaching.

It's nearly 0230 in my neck of the woods. I will have to return to this thread in a day or two with some explanation.
 

·
Gamer Scumbag
Joined
·
1,476 Posts
The problem with the laser is it pulls your eyes away from the sights and is giving you feedback that you don't get when shooting real bullets.

The goal for your dryfire practice should be to be able to snap your eyes to any target, present the gun there with the sights aligned, confirm said sight alignment visually, and break the shot without disturbing that alignment.

If it was an IR laser that you couldn't see, but the system could somehow still score, THAT would be incredible.

None of the GMs I know used a laser to get to that level...but in USPSA becoming a GM is a lot more than drawing a gun from low ready and shooting static stages that never change.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,022 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Indeed but it would be much more valuable for training
You're right. I probably would buy that right out of the gate if I knew that delivered what's advertised.

I got burned on a $140 Laserlyte pistol, and am hesitant to go ALL in on something pie in the sky.

I have already found limitations of my current Laserlyte targets:
1) There is a minimal RESET time for a Laserlyte target, so follow up shots can never be registered faster than that reset time. It's OK for single hits and then move onto another target, but I'll eventually hit a limit with the Laserlyte reactive targets usage.

2) Even with a single hit on the target, there is a minimal amount of hover time for the laser to register a hit on the reactive target. I simply can't take a laser pointer and sweep the target. So this creates an extended amount of time I must stay on the target. Now, this helps IMPROVE follow through and not wiggling/moving the pistol prematurely, but it does create a limit to how fast I can move from one target to the next, and I certainly can't FLOW through the simulated plate rack.

***********
I'm no where near performing at these limits, and if I get there it will get me to my GSSF goals. Then I'll reevaluate my next level of training practice.

All this is validated/re-enforced with my actual range time, which of course only a fraction of what time I have to allocate to practice.

The SIRT training pistol goes a LONG WAY toward getting a realistic Glock trigger pull. It is tune-able (travel, and pull weight) for those wanting to dial it in even more.

Now, I'm very disappointed with the HOLSTER compatibility. It flops around in my Safariland retention holster, and doesn't engage the locking system. So, yes, I can draw with it, but it doesn't feel anything like a G17 on the draw. I may as well be drawing out of an Uncle Mikes $10 holster.

********
PS, I also got burned on the barrel laser from Laserlyte. I'm done giving them my money, and just want to take baby steps with new products.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,710 Posts
There’s an interesting story about someone practicing the same challenges again and again.

I forget what discipline it was, but something with the same stages all the time.

He got to the match and kept missing the side target.

Turns out it was set a little farther to the side than the “official dimension” and he had rote memorized the shooting pattern and timing... he didn’t adapt to what was actually going on. He was just going through the motions.

I decided to myself that kind of sport was not for me.

I understand the limitations of having a small kid at home, but if you are creative you can find solutions.

I made “A” in USPSA Carry Optics after 10 months of competing.

Inspired by @waktasz video:
My all A zone 4 aces in 2.2s.


For me, Carry Optics made it easy to track and trace shots. It’s like having a built in “laser.” For my Glocks I have one of the $$ reset triggers, but a dry fire mag would work too.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
133 Posts
Ive been looking at the sirt pistol or a dryfire mag. I like the idea of a dedicated training pistol to soak up all my dry fire work.

Do you feel like the SIRT replicates the Glock well enough that you don’t feel the need or desire to dry fire with your actual pistols?

Did you get a metal slide or polymer slide?

SIRT has some sales going on right now. For the price of a case of 9mm (or less with pandemic pricing) you can get a polymer slide with extra magazines. Sounds pretty good to me.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,022 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Ive been looking at the sirt pistol or a dryfire mag. I like the idea of a dedicated training pistol to soak up all my dry fire work.

Do you feel like the SIRT replicates the Glock well enough that you don’t feel the need or desire to dry fire with your actual pistols?

Did you get a metal slide or polymer slide?

SIRT has some sales going on right now. For the price of a case of 9mm (or less with pandemic pricing) you can get a polymer slide with extra magazines. Sounds pretty good to me.
I got the $200 special

SIRT Survival Pack
https://nextleveltraining.com/product/sirt-survival-package/

It's on the SECOND PAGE of the shop link.

It isn't obvious, but is a Red/Red plastic slide (red) with two extra magazines (the big sell) instructional DVD, and tinted shooting glasses.

I mistakenly bought just a regular pistol with ONE magazine at $240. I wrote them back and they fixed it for me (still waiting for my card to be refunded for the first purchase).

Anyway............ that's the deal I recommend.

*********

The pistol seemed to come zeroed right out of the box. I didn't bother messing with it.

Trigger:
My very first thought was, hmm, this doesn't feel like a toy, it actually feels like a crappy striker fire trigger. It has a take up, then a wall, then a heavy break.

Weight:
I weight it, and the plastic slide is 9oz lighter than a Gen4 G17 with 10 rounds (29.9oz) in the magazine. I was able to put a light on the front packed with lead instead of batteries and got the SIRT to 27.5oz. So it weighs as much as a G17 loaded with four 115gn bullets.

It feels in the hand like a real gun. Obviously not a Glock, but it feels as real as any Glock variant. So far I think it's worth the $80 more over the Laserlyte toy.

The major sell for me was how much more realistic level it reaches, and what impressed me was the on-line HOW TO information they have to work on it.

It is also modular if you need to repair it.

Now I have the light on front is should also balance better to the real thing. I also plan to change out the sights to an extra set of Dawsons I have, and maybe if I put on a set of TALON grips it will feel more like my Glocks with the same sight picture.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
133 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,022 Posts
Discussion Starter · #15 ·
https://store.laser-ammo.com/softwa...ntal-and-marksmanship-shooting-simulator.html

$500 for software and camera. You would also need a projector and screen. It seems more reasonably priced than other options I’ve seen, but I haven’t done much research. It certainly looks like a lot of fun.
I was looking at a $120 option if you supply your own webcam and laptop:
https://lasrapp.com/store/

Not nearly as cool as Laser Ammo, not as fancy, but I could still design my own courses of fire, and all I would need is the base software.
 

·
Florida's Left Coast
Joined
·
9,515 Posts
Ive been looking at the sirt pistol or a dryfire mag. I like the idea of a dedicated training pistol to soak up all my dry fire work.

Do you feel like the SIRT replicates the Glock well enough that you don’t feel the need or desire to dry fire with your actual pistols?

Did you get a metal slide or polymer slide?

SIRT has some sales going on right now. For the price of a case of 9mm (or less with pandemic pricing) you can get a polymer slide with extra magazines. Sounds pretty good to me.
I got the $200 special

SIRT Survival Pack
https://nextleveltraining.com/product/sirt-survival-package/

It's on the SECOND PAGE of the shop link.

It isn't obvious, but is a Red/Red plastic slide (red) with two extra magazines (the big sell) instructional DVD, and tinted shooting glasses.

I mistakenly bought just a regular pistol with ONE magazine at $240. I wrote them back and they fixed it for me (still waiting for my card to be refunded for the first purchase).

Anyway............ that's the deal I recommend.

*********

The pistol seemed to come zeroed right out of the box. I didn't bother messing with it.

Trigger:
My very first thought was, hmm, this doesn't feel like a toy, it actually feels like a crappy striker fire trigger. It has a take up, then a wall, then a heavy break.

Weight:
I weight it, and the plastic slide is 9oz lighter than a Gen4 G17 with 10 rounds (29.9oz) in the magazine. I was able to put a light on the front packed with lead instead of batteries and got the SIRT to 27.5oz. So it weighs as much as a G17 loaded with four 115gn bullets.

It feels in the hand like a real gun. Obviously not a Glock, but it feels as real as any Glock variant. So far I think it's worth the $80 more over the Laserlyte toy.

The major sell for me was how much more realistic level it reaches, and what impressed me was the on-line HOW TO information they have to work on it.

It is also modular if you need to repair it.

Now I have the light on front is should also balance better to the real thing. I also plan to change out the sights to an extra set of Dawsons I have, and maybe if I put on a set of TALON grips it will feel more like my Glocks with the same sight picture.
I have a SIRT with metal slide and red/green LASERs - though I have currently disabled the green LASER as my students used it for a crutch, and the green LASER doesn't register on targets.

There is essentially an Armorer's course on YT for the SIRT, and indeed, the trigger is tunable, LASER color selection may be turned off/on and switched for take-up and shot. It was NOT sighted in for me from the factory. The trigger is close, but not quite there when approximating a Glock.

I have so many G17s that I dedicated one to a resetting trigger and LASER cartridge - and for me, that is the 'gun' I practice with. The resetting trigger also does NOT get that close to a Glock, but remains my trainer of choice, over the SIRT. To convert a G17 to a trainer costs nearly as much (or more than some) SIRTs, and nearly as much as a GSSF G17. You must have an extra G17 as you certainly wouldn't want to change out the trigger group to shoot it occasionally.

The SIRT (w/metal slide) works perfectly in a thumb drive and other retention holsters for me, though I rarely practice from retention.

Although a weighted dummy mag came with the SIRT, I created my own dummy mag with 147gr dummy rounds I loaded myself - without powder and primer. I use that mag with students when I pull it from the gun and ask what it is... "clip" usually; then pull a (dummy-round) cartridge from the mag and ask what that is... "bullet" usually. Fake news, cop shows and movies, and misinformation has ingrained things like this, and AR-14s!

BTW, if you happen to be an NRA Instructor, most of these companies offer some kind of discount - usually 10% or more.
 

·
Florida's Left Coast
Joined
·
9,515 Posts
...Have you seen this range simulator? The Smokeless Range...

View: https://youtu.be/cnfAe2rErqQ


https://store.laser-ammo.com/softwa...ntal-and-marksmanship-shooting-simulator.html

$500 for software and camera. You would also need a projector and screen. It seems more reasonably priced than other options I’ve seen, but I haven’t done much research. It certainly looks like a lot of fun.
I have the Smokeless Range - I have every one of the systems and hardware mentioned by the OP. All I've done with the SR is a proof-of-concept... and it works. I have the Steel add-on. Will have to get back with details after the system is fully functional... maybe 2-3"weeks, though.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,022 Posts
Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Awesome, thanks for the great feedback.

That $200 package was exactly what was tempting me.
Forgot to mention, don't get excited about the eye pro that comes with the $200 package. I find them below par of what my range gives out for loaners. It's on par with BULK eye pro from Home Depot. I don't even know why they bothered.

I would have been PISSED if I paid $20 for those. Maybe $5 if I was at a local gun range and forgot my eye pro when trying to rent a shooting lane.

Unrelated........, but I just see little short comings with their product line and imagine it's all part of running a small business and trying to make the best of things and get by. I hope they succeed, because I think highly so far of their core product (the pistols).
 
1 - 19 of 19 Posts
Top