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Bear "Hunting?"

Discussion in 'Hunting, Fishing & Camping' started by manonmars, May 14, 2003.

  1. manonmars

    manonmars Spaced Out

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    WASHINGTON TIMES OP-ED
    Ban bear baiting

    Just before leaving office, Minnesota Gov. Jesse
    Ventura was asked for his
    thoughts of bear baiting. He replied, "Going out
    there and putting jelly
    doughnuts down and Yogi comes up and sits there
    and thinks he's found the
    mother lode for five days in a row - and then you
    back-shoot him from a
    tree?.... That ain't sport - that's an
    assassination."

    Mr. Ventura had it exactly right: baiting makes a
    mockery of any sense of
    fair play or hunting ethics. baiting also wreaks
    havoc by creating a class of
    "nuisance" bears that puts the animals, private
    property and people at risk.
    The practice is shameful. It is bad public
    policy, and it ought to be
    outlawed.

    Baiters dump parts of animal carcasses, pastries
    and other decaying foods
    into piles or barrels. To the bears, who feed in
    autumn for 15 hours a day to
    prepare for a long period of dormancy, the bait
    piles must seem like a gift
    from heaven.

    Many guides and outfitters set up the bait
    "stations" to make it easy for
    paying clients to shoot a trophy bear. The
    client, perched in a tree or
    behind a blind, takes aim with a rifle or bow,
    often when the oblivious
    animal is feasting. It's a last meal for the
    bear, a big payday for the
    guide, and light work for the so-called "hunter"
    who pulls the trigger.

    It is not exactly heart-stopping action, except
    if you are the bear. Nor can
    it be called by any stretch "subsistence
    hunting." Bear baiters litter the
    woods with scraps and garbage, leaving behind far
    more food than they drag
    off in the form of the bear meat - if they bother
    taking the sinewy carcass
    at all.

    Of the 27 states that allow bear hunting,
    two-thirds ban baiting. In the
    states that allow it, baiting often occurs on our
    federal lands. But baiting
    on these lands is particularly hard to defend,
    since all of the federal land
    agencies put out materials telling the public not
    to do precisely what the
    baiters are doing. The U.S. Forest Service, for
    instance, publishes leaflets
    and brochures that warn "Do Not Feed Bears!,"
    "Bears Are Dangerous!," and "A
    fed bear is a dead bear." "Biologically, there is
    no difference between a
    bait station and a dump," wrote a top official
    with the National Park
    Service. "Bait stations habituate bears to
    human-generated food, contributing
    to the potential for conflicts between bears and
    people in the park."

    Tom Beck, a hunter and a bear biologist with the
    Colorado Division of
    Wildlife, wrote in Outdoor Life, "I firmly
    believe that baiting creates
    'nuisance' bears. Black bears are naturally wary,
    instinctively avoiding
    close contact with humans. But large amounts of
    tasty food, easily obtained,
    defeats this wariness. By baiting, we create lazy
    bears who have been
    rewarded, not punished, for overcoming their fear
    of humans."

    Not only lazy, but dangerous and destructive:
    Bears accustomed to human foods
    raid campgrounds, break into tents and cabins,
    and may even threaten people.

    In Yosemite National Park, where many visitors
    ignore the no-feeding
    policies, bears caused more than $630,000 in
    property damage in one recent
    year.

    If it is wrong to set out food to lure bears for
    picture-taking, or even just
    to watch the bears, why is it OK to lure bears
    for the purpose of shooting
    them?

    Bear baiting apologists claim that it's needed to
    control the bear
    population. What they fail to mention is that
    thousands of bait piles provide
    massive supplemental feed for the animals not
    shot for trophies. Bears that
    build major fat reserves thanks to bait stations
    are more likely to produce
    cubs and add to the total bear population. The
    practice is self-defeating if
    the goal is population reduction.

    The federal government banned the baiting of
    waterfowl decades ago. And in
    1970, Congress outlawed hunting by aircraft - for
    the same reasons of ethics
    and good public policy. Now, it is time for the
    federal government to tell
    hunters to pursue their quarry the old-fashioned
    way and to quit turning
    thousands of bruins into garbage moochers and
    nuisance animals. Bear baiters
    need to leave their jelly doughnuts at home and
    quit treating federal lands
    like their dumping grounds.
     
  2. Danimal

    Danimal Disappointed Millennium Member

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    Did you have an actual point, or were you just trying to dredge up the corpse of the last anti-hunting thread you started, shove your hand up its *** and try to make the mouth move with the same weak, biased points you tried last time? ;Q


    Edited to add: I actually agree with the article for the most part. Hunting over bait, unless it is a water tank in the Sonoran Desert, is poor sportsmanship. However, the agenda and motives of the messenger can often cloud the message itself.
     

  3. USMCsilver

    USMCsilver Boat Life ©

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    Ahh, now I get it.

    I read the article and thought that it sounded legit -- quit baiting bears. Yeah, I agree. Hunting over bait is often like shootin' fish in a barrel.

    But, now that Danimal pointed it out, I scrolled back up; lo and behold it is the "anti-hunter" again.

    Oh well. Just a piece of advice: You are not going to convert anyone here. I can almost guarantee you that...
     
  4. manonmars

    manonmars Spaced Out

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    I am passing on information I received so that "intelligent" members of GT can understand that there are many various and opposing views referencing hunting of various game, and the ways in which this game is taken.

    Again, Mr. Animal, although I PERSONALLY do not hunt, I do respect HUNTERS.

    And again, I do have friends and associates who do HUNT.

    I have a good friend who is 65 years old and because of medical restraints, cannot walk the hills while hunting. But he did in fact get an antelope last year after shooting it from the road standing next to his pickup. The head hangs from his wall.

    Although I do not feel good for the antelope, I do feel good for my friend, who has been antelope hunting for 20+ years. This was his first successful antelope hunt.

    What I am OPPOSED to is when HEALTHY individuals or groups of "Hunters" use means of hunting which put the animal at a LARGE disadvantage and require no real HUNTING SKILL from the individual or group of "HUNTERS".

    I am slso opposed to killing animals just to stuff & mount them. THAT I do not understand, unless the old saying about the size of the trophy hunters ***** is true.........

    But you could make the same argument about a man's car.....

    And I fully understand that MOST individuals who are members of GT do not agree with me.

    But I also am aware that as a man gets older, his need to hunt diminishes, and his enjoyment of seeing live/wild animals increases...so it seems with the people I have spoken with.

    And I am aware that this change of heart does not apply to all men, and I would guess, does not apply to a majority of GT'ers.

    Personally, I enjoy watching LIVE bear, deer, eagles, rabbits, coyotes, squirrels, birds, etc. out my office window.

    I am aware that many "city dwellers" do not have the appreciation and respect for the forests/animals/ecology that some of us who live at the edge of the "wilderness" do. If you live in Tigard, OR, you can just say you live in Portland----same thing------.

    I am always amazed at those of you who do live in the city and fight for "Healthy Forests".

    So, Mr. Animal, relax. My thoughts and feelings are outnumbered by 100 to 1 or more on this forum. I have no illusions about changing yours or anyone elses mind about hunting/killing.

    I presented this information for 3 reasons; 1. To see if you were still out there, alive, and "spoutin' your stuff" 2. Because I am certain there are some GT'ers who feel the way I do, & 3. To expose other GT'ers to another way of thinking, with the idea that if they bait bears, or hunt cougars with dogs, (which is NECESSARY sometimes), or shoot animals with no other reason than the idea that it makes them "One Macho Dude", they may want to THINK about what they are doing.

    Times change. Thoughts change. People change. The only thing that does not change is the fact that everything is constantly changing.

    And I want to thank Eric for this forum. I appreciate the ability to voice MY opinion.
     
  5. Scott H

    Scott H Guest


    So by your own words, you are a hunter, and use bait too. [​IMG]
     
  6. Danimal

    Danimal Disappointed Millennium Member

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    At least you are being honest and consistent about your agenda. Kudos for that. I am sure there are "intelligent" people on GlockTalk who agree with you...other than us troglodytes who slaughter innocent animals.

    However, branching out into other topics might help your cause. Once you have developed a bit of credibility on other topics, it's easier to begin the Manchurian Candidate stuff on us hunters.

    So in the interest of fair and open discourse....why is this a big issue for you? Are you this passionate about anything else?
     
  7. BrianDamage

    BrianDamage YouTalkin'ToMe?

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    In the first place, even when bait is used, it's not as easy as just sitting back and waiting. You may set up for days and still not get a shot at a decent bear. Most of these hunters are not out to shoot just any old bear, they want a large, mature animal worthy of getting into the record books. The smaller immmature bears are allowed to go about their business.

    There was an issue of Bowhunter last year that had an article about this. The hunter sat in the sand over bait for a whole week's hunt and never got hte shot at the bear he wanted.

    Bears have no natural enemies except man. If we do not hunt them, they overpopulate. When they overpopulate, they tend to wonder into town and then people freak out. Sometimes, the 'nuisance' bear is shot if it is a repeat offender. It may even become accustoemd to being near humans, and that can be dangerous.

    There are only two solutions that I see.

    1)Everybody burn down every man-made structure for miles around, till the ground over and plant trees. All of us humans will move to one state and live in high rise buildings so we can cram more people per square foot of land. We will grow any fresh vegetables on top of the high rises, and anything else we eat will be syntetic. The animals will rule the wild lands.

    2)we can go on living as we do, using legal hunting seasons and regulations to our advantage to control the populations of the animals whose habitat we destroyed. It only make since if a population of 100 bears can live in a forest of a million acres and have plenty of food, room to live and roam, etc., and then the size of the forest is cut down to say 250,000 acres, then the population of the bears has got to be kept in check or it will soon outgrow its habitat.
     
  8. hcook

    hcook

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    manonmars,

    Have you ever hunted bear over bait? Ever seen it done? It's not quite as simple as you might imagine...

    As with almost every type of hunting, you must be sure that your quarry doesn't sense your presence. Yes, even though the air is ripe with the scent of bait, a bear can sense human presence. Under most circumstances, bears are not aggressive and will usually head for the hills if they sense danger. Not heart stopping? If you've ever played hide-and-go-seek, you probably understand the excitement of the seeker coming oh-so-close to you but not seeing you. Well, hunting is quite similar except you're the "seeker" but you have to not be seen - like the "hider."

    When it comes to putting out bait you can't just drive down any old dirt road, toss a few Krispy Kremes into the woods, and wait for Yogi. You'll waste your time if there aren't bear in the area, and you'll waste your time if the bait isn't placed in the proper setting, eg out in the middle of a field.

    Assuming that you've placed your bait in a good area and have masked your scent carefully, you still need to be sure that it's bears that are regularly visiting your bait. Racoons have an appetite for sugary snacks too. You also must determine the timing of the visits. Verifying what your bait is being visited by and when it's being visited takes time, as well as stealth and patience.

    As far as wasting the animal, I think that's a poorly supported claim at best. Many bear hunters take the animal to be butchered and actually eat it.

    The claim that the article makes about bear baiting increasing the bear population is ludicrous. The author clearly has no idea how much bait is put out, nor how long the baiting season lasts. Unless you're talking about a HUGE outfit that's tending a few hundred bait stations, it's way off. I don't know the rules in every state, but the ones I do know say you can't put your bait out until a short time prior to the actual hunt opening, so it's not as though the bears are hanging out at the bait station all summer eating bacon grease and day-old pastries.

    All in all, hunting bear over bait isn't nearly the criminally-easy, irresponsible proposition that some make it out to be. It's easier and more productive than stomping through the boonies and hoping you stumble onto one, and it's easier and more productive than consulting a clairvoyant on where to hunt. But easy like shooting a cow that's guaranteed to come to the barn and eat grain without a care in the world? Not even remotely...

    Anti-hunting articles are usually filled with unsupported claims, half-truths, conjecture, misleading appeals to emotion, and outright lies - just like the vast majority of anti-gun articles. The op-ed piece you posted is a prime example.
     
  9. geminicricket

    geminicricket NRA Life member

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    I like hunting the way Winston Churchill liked the Church of England. "I support the Church of England like a flying buttress ... from the outside."
     
  10. WalterGA

    WalterGA Millennium Member

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    I've been a hunter since I was six-yrs.-old. I've never hunted bear, but I have seen a bear "hunt" on one of the outdoors t.v. shows. Woman was sitting up in a stand about 10' above a small structure where bait had been placed. Can't believe how elated that stupid ho was when she shot the bear with a scoped rifle @ 10'. I'm all for hunting. That ain't hunting. (and no amount of sugar-coating, eg., "sitting in a stand for hours is so difficult, blah, blah, blah", will ever make it huntin. Gimme a break!)
     
  11. manonmars

    manonmars Spaced Out

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    Mr. Animal,

    I disagree with you again!

    This HUNTERS thing is not my AGENDA.

    My AGENDA is closed minded people.

    The following is my opinion, and my opinion only. Had it been a real opinion, you would have been instructed to send money.

    I have an OPINION about everything.

    I try VERY HARD to be open minded. I realize I am NOT open minded about "everything".
    Child Porn, child abuse, adult abuse, Rape, "Men" who hit/beat abuse women (of course if they DESERVE it, it's another story), just kiddin', Republocrats, Murders, etc. I am closed minded about these individuals/topics.

    BUT, I do feel that almost anyone CAN change my opinion about almost anything with proven facts combined with a convincing presentation.

    Other topics; Shooting lead thru Glocks. I have heard all sides, talked with MANY people, researched, contacted Glock tech. support,
    met with/shot with the local shooters club of which 75% shoot Glocks, spoken with many of them, read study after study, bla, bla, bla.

    My opinion is that it is safe to shoot QUALITY lead thru stock Glocks IF you brush the barrel after a MAXIMUM of 100 rounds. And depending upon the powder used, the quality of lead bullet, etc. you can safely shoot lead for years.

    And I have posted my findings.

    Another thing I am adament about is helping others who are just starting to reload that it is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT that they GO SLOW, RELOAD IN A ROOM WHERE THERE ARE NO OTHER DISTRACTIONS, AND ABSTAIN FROM DRINKING ADULT BEVERAGES.

    No one told me this, it was not on the Dillon intro. tape (I do not remember it anyway), and as I sat in front of my TV drinking a beer, loading 45's, I could not understand what had caused my KB.

    I have posted this.

    My AGENDA consists of trying to be patient with people who's opinions are, in my opinion, "Way off Base".

    ie; Was Bill Clinton a bad president?
    Is Geo. Bush a bad president?

    In MY opinion, the answer to the above is YES!

    WHO was/is worse?

    So, far, it's Clinton, with Bush running a close second...so far!

    But the wackos who HATE Clinton, or HATE Bush, are the people who I have a problem with.

    Do I make my point?

    I have to take my dog (or it's time for hime to take me) for a walk.

    I am lucky in that I live 200 yards from BLM on 3 sides of me. It is full of animals I could hunt, but NAH!

    Although I do admit, the cougar population has me concerned. I'd hate to kill them just to reduce the population, and my neighbors have had goats/llamas killed by them..........

    OK! OK! If I saw one attacking or about to attack me, my g.friend, child, dog, farm animal, etc, I would not hesitate for a second to shoot it. OK. I said it-----I'd kill an animal!!--OK--is that better?

    Gotta' go strap on my G30, pepper spray, and hunting knife & go get some x-r size.

    HEY SCOTT H----------------great comeback........
     
  12. CheesyD

    CheesyD Nyet to Marxism

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    Pretty much sums up my feelings on this, too. Hunting is fine, but do it with a sense of honor and with respect for your quarry.
     
  13. manonmars

    manonmars Spaced Out

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    HCook, I agree somewhat with your statements.

    Sifting thru the BS in pro-animal articles is a challenge.


    WalterGA, that is EXACTLY my point.

    She was a bear "killer", not a bear "hunter".
     
  14. thaddeus

    thaddeus Millennium Member

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    It all depends on how you define hunting. Many years ago, people got their game NO MATTER WHAT MEANS IT TOOK.
    Today, hunting has become a "sport" and it is tougher than it has ever been.
    People talk about how "unfair" it is to hunt in certain ways. I don't think any other predators mind cheating if it gets them their game. And neither did early man.
    I just get tired of people saying that hunting these days is so easy because of technology. Actually, all the restrictions make hunting much harder today than ever before.
     
  15. Danimal

    Danimal Disappointed Millennium Member

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    I wasn't baiting you, honest. It was just an observation that the only posts I have seen from you are on this particular topic. I am sure you have other interests, but I just have not seen them. And to avoid a problem I see on the horizon, just because someone disagrees with you, does not make them closed minded.

    ...and yes, Scott...that was pretty funny. I have been gut-shot over the cyber-equivalent of a pile of jelly donuts and fish heads. ;f
     
  16. manonmars

    manonmars Spaced Out

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  17. manonmars

    manonmars Spaced Out

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    Sorry about that last post...
    How do you quote someone when replying?
     
  18. Danimal

    Danimal Disappointed Millennium Member

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    Just hit the "quote" button, and then type your reply after the "[/B][/QUOTE]" marks. Go ahead and delete parts of the post within those marks that you don't need to quote.
     
  19. manonmars

    manonmars Spaced Out

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    hit "quote" button, type reply after "[/B][/QUOTE]" marks. delete parts post within marks don't need.

    OK, thanks. The above is a practice run.......

    I was going to comment on Thaddeus post re;

    "I just get tired of people saying that hunting these days is so easy because of technology. Actually, all the restrictions make hunting much harder today than ever before."
    --------
    "Technically", hunting, in my opinion, IS easier today than in the past.

    I think that we can all agree with that...

    Better guns, bullets, binoculars, the list goes on...

    BUT, the "Restrictions" placed upon hunters are more stringent.

    And I admit, I am not familiar with all these restrictions.

    My opinion is that restrictions had to be placed upon hunters because of abuses in hunting practices...........but I am certain the Govt. implemented restrictions which are overly protective/ourtageous.

    Am I wrong?
     
  20. thaddeus

    thaddeus Millennium Member

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    I do not disagree. The equipment today makes it a little easier to hunt. But equipment really does not offer that much of an advantage in the end. I guarantee that if you had the best equipment available you could easily come home year after year with no meat.

    Restrictions make hunting extremely challenging. You will pass up a LOT of game and turn your back on a lot of techniques in order to find the right animal in a legal position to harvest it.

    Hunting these days is much like soldiers trying to fight the Viet Cong: even when you find the target, you probably aren't allowed to engage it. If it crosses over an imaginary boundary, you can no longer chase it. Only during very specific times of day and year can you engage. When you are allowed to engage it, there are so many restrictions that your list of possible strategies are limited to the least effective.

    I do think that Wildlife Management requires restrictions. My only point is that I get sick of non-hunters portraying hunting as some wild redneck activity where you just go blast anything with your big gun while drinking beer.
    Fact is, you will pass up a ton of game before you get a shot...if you get a shot...and if it is a legal shot.

    If you were really "hunting" in the classic definition, rarely would you pass up an opportunity....rarely would you pass up a good animal....and certainly there would be no such thing as "cheating" to get your game.
    I don't think that any predator on earth, including early man, had/has any problem with hunting at night, or baiting or whatever is necessary to put meat on the table. At most, they might avoid taking game duringmating in order to insure more for next year, but even that it up to debate. Therefore, what is called "hunting" depends on who you ask, when and where, and what your goal is.