Baton - non-lethal self defense alternative

Discussion in 'Tactics and Training' started by mmcbeat, Dec 6, 2019.

  1. TheDreadnought

    TheDreadnought

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    I know there are restrictions about the use of batons in my state. Never bothered to learn the specifics. If you need a baton, you’re probably in a situation requiring a gun. A steel baton is a deadly weapon, not a “less than lethal” defensive tool.
     
  2. NMG26

    NMG26

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    I can't carry a gun to work. I can carry a Hickory stick. Mine is camouflaged with an umbrella cover.
    Strong arm robberies often turn into beatings. I'd prefer to have something other than my fists to fight with. I've considered a cane.
    I take a Bus to downtown Denver @4AM and then walk three blocks.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2019
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  3. Just_plinking

    Just_plinking

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    I believe it probably would have worked out fine for him if he didn't pull the trigger (which he obviously didn't need to do to defend himself).

    With that being said, if he thought like I do he would have never needed to pull the gun out in the first place. Iirc the shooter instigated the whole thing. That is the antithesis of my m.o.

    That instance is a textbook example of where somebody could and should have never gotten involved in the first place, and could have, forgive me, just walked away.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2019
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  4. ronin.45

    ronin.45

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    If I'm being beaten and can't get away why would it be illegal for me to use force? It meets all requirements of being in fear for my life or safety. As I said before, hundreds of people are punched and kicked to death every year, why would I hope I'm not one of them if I have a way to save myself?
     
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  5. Sam Spade

    Sam Spade Staff Member Lifetime Member

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  6. Just_plinking

    Just_plinking

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    In what percentage of those simple assaults did the involved know each other? Those (the vast majority) have nothing to do with me.


    Explain using lethal force? I'd only use it if I was in fear for my life. If I could avoid using it I would, and have. I'd error on the side of being a victim rather than go to prison.

    I'm not that worldly, or tough, but I can count several situations where I stared somebody down, and shook my head "no" bolstered by the confidence of having a pistol on me (service man working, and for a few years living, in the city). At no point did I wish for a baton.

    I can, and I believe have, avoided simple assult, at least.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2019
  7. FireForged

    FireForged Millenium #3936 Millennium Member

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    I don't think anyone said you cant use force.

    The question is .. the means, the method, to what degree it is used and the duration of such force. It is also fairly important to consider exactly what the force is intended to overcome. If we are narrowly speaking to "deadly force", jeopardy, the qualification of jeopardy and whether or not jeopardy existed- will probably be part of the equation.

    As has been previously suggested.. FORCE and especially DEADLY FORCE is a pendulum of considerations which are usually based on elements within the specific event. It can also be a pendulum that swings back and forth as circumstances develop and dissolve.

    The term "beating" is rather emotional and does not necessarily mean that a persons life is in danger. The term "beating" is also very subjective as one person might call something a "beating" that someone else would not. The whole point ( I think) is whether or not a persons life is actually in danger and whether or not using deadly force is lawful within that circumstance. I think we can all agree that deadly force is NOT necessary in the majority of fist fights, assaults and the typical ruckus/brawl.

    I am not saying to refrain from using force.. I am simply suggesting that a person have a reasonably discerning process to qualify it and that process be in lock step with applicable laws of the land.



    Brother.. assault is assault. If you want to narrowly focus on fights and assaults that only involve "Strangers" or unknow offenders with no blood relation, fine.. its still going to be millions upon millions ( each year) which do not result in life threatening injury or death.

    I only hope that your fear is considered reasonable by the people who are judging the circumstances after the fact. Plenty of people have claimed to be "in fear of their life".
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2019
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  8. Rellik

    Rellik Kwisatz Haderach in Training

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    You guys need proper instruction on the umbrella:
    umbrella.jpg

    Remember your Lovette: By the time your opponent learns that you are armed, it should be too late for him to do anything about it. :cheers:
     
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  9. willie_pete

    willie_pete NRA Life Member

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  10. Rellik

    Rellik Kwisatz Haderach in Training

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    Willie, do you have Janich' "Martial Cane Consepts?" DVD
    Its simple, effective, NOT martial artsy fartsy, and you can add your own sugar and spice to the blend.
     
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  11. willie_pete

    willie_pete NRA Life Member

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    No, Kelly Worden's " Defensive Cane ".

    Thanks, I'll look it up. Always open to new things.
     
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  12. fredj338

    fredj338

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    An ASP or sim collapsible baton makes a lot of sense but in many states, its an illegal weapon. You still need quite a bit of training to effectively use any baton. Biggest downside is you have to get within grappling distance of the threat, rarely a good idea. Upside is I don't have to shoot an unarmed guy & if he gets my baton away from me, now I have to shoot him or maybe he beats me to death with it.
     
  13. fredj338

    fredj338

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    If you get into a fist fight & you are carrying a gun, you brought a gun to a fist fight. So now you MUST protect the gun at all cost because should you lose the fight & he gets the gun, that certainly could cost you your life.
     
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  14. fredj338

    fredj338

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    ITs not that you cant not but it better be pretty clear as to why you had to. Think Zimmerman. Justifiable shooting but because of the circumstances, he barely survived the court proceedings. I would have to really be losing a fist fight to draw my weapon.
     
  15. fredj338

    fredj338

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    Maybe. I had TSA try to make me check a collapsible aluminum monopod used for photo work, and that was before 911. So as with most things TSA, maybe.
     
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  16. ronin.45

    ronin.45

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    Zimmerman's big mistake was not shooting an unarmed attacker, it was following and engaging with said attacker after the police told him not to. If he had backed off and headed for home when advised he would have never been in that situation. Once the attacker was on his chest smacking his head into the ground he did exactly what he should have.
     
  17. fredj338

    fredj338

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    Agree, why I said it was a good shoot BUT, he put himself into a position & had no skills to get himself out of it. He brought a gun to a fist fight & he couldn't fight without it. I doubt you or I would have put ourselves into that position.
     
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  18. fg17

    fg17

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    Zimms big mistake was being there in the first place. His CCW got him in that situation, I doubt he would have been doing much neighborhood watching if he wasn’t able to pack.
     
  19. FireForged

    FireForged Millenium #3936 Millennium Member

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    Zimmerman nearly went to prison and although I personally agree with his use of deadly force ( at the time he used it), I seriously doubt that using it earlier would have made this situation better for him. It probably would have made it worse in terms of his defense of it.
     
  20. Sharkey

    Sharkey

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    I carry an ASP baton on me, small lightweight model and I have a SAP in the work SUV and a ball peen hammer in my personal car. I usually walk the dog with a cane, staff, or PR24. I like having options and nice to have an inbetween tool between empty hand and Glock Fu.
    There was a scenario at work where an impact tool was needed. Crazy guy at airport banging on my 85K SUV. Getting out and shooting him not an option. Driving off and leaving principal to walk into that was not an option either.

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