[RYT 2BER]

I know many of us choose SD ammo with impressive ballistic penetration tests.

I was watching some videos on rounds fired into gel and they routinely went through the gel and then exited ...

Now for example my torso is probably 12 to 14 inches from front to back (I assume )... why would someone want 12+ inches of penetration? Would like "half way" be better at disrupting tissue to neutralize a threat?

I've always been a bit confused at the 12+ inch penetration stuff when talking about SD against a human threat :dunno: ?

 

[Berto]

I know many of us choose SD ammo with impressive ballistic penetration tests.

I was watching some videos on rounds fired into gel and they routinely went through the gel and then exited ...

Now for example my torso is probably 12 to 14 inches from front to back (I assume )... why would someone want 12+ inches of penetration? Would like "half way" be better at disrupting tissue to neutralize a threat?

I've always been a bit confused at the 12+ inch penetration stuff when talking about SD against a human threat :dunno: ?

Things to consider:

1) Many people are fat as hell and some just big.

2) People have bones, most vital organs and the noodle are protected by bone.

3) People typically use hands, legs, feet, arms to protect themselves when being shot at.

4) A round that penetrates 12" of jello may only penetrate 6" after getting through a sternum....or less after going through a humerus and bicep.

The 12" 'rule' is simply a baseline minimum established with consideration of most realistic shooting scenarios.

Most handgun rounds can do this with a non expanding bullet, but with expanding bullets, esp in sub or 'threshold' rounds like the .380, you may only get one trait or the other- expansion OR penetration.

This 12" minimum is helpful when looking for loads where you desire expansion and sufficient penetration.

 

[AK_Stick]

two inches of penetration in gel usually means about an inch of penetration in a person.


So 12 inches of penetration in gel are going to give you 6-8 inches in a person.

Also, when shooting a person, its fairly common to not get a good unobstructed shot at the torso, you might get a outstretched arm in the way, and have to penetrate a few inches in that before exiting, and entering the torso. You might have a heavy jacket, cell phone, or other objects require penetration before the bullet makes it to the person.


Bullets that hit atleast 12 inches in gel its found, commonly penetrate deep enough to get to the vitals, where as rounds that do not, have been found lacking.

As to why you might want more, there's alot of people who beleive that a hole in one side and out the other, lets more blood out, and leads to faster incapacitation. Its a common thing among hunters. The flip side, is people who are sold on muzzle energy being important, often prefer a bullet that comes to a rest inside the target, there by expending all its energy in the target.


IMO different means to the same end. All things considered, I'll take the bullet that exits personally.

 

[Bluestreakfl]

While a bullet may penetrate anywhere from 12-16" in ballistics gelatin, humans aren't made of jelly. There is clothing, sometimes more than one layer, bone, muscle, organs, etc. A bullet that is tested to penetrate 14" in gelatin may only penetrate 8-12" on a human. Ballistics gelatin is just the most accurate testing medium for the most part as far as getting a somewhat accurate measurement on penetration. A good site I could reccomend would be www.brassfetcher.com he does not only gel testing but also testing with bone simulants inside the gel and documents how the penetration is affected when there are bones involved and things like layers of denim. The guy is a genius, and I would highly recommend his site for ballistic information.


OutdoorHub Mobile, the information engine of the outdoors.

 

[RYT 2BER]

Thanks guys.. good info here

 

[cowboy1964]

I've also read that the skin on the far side does a good job of keeping the bullet within the body if it's slowed down enough already, because the skin is so elastic. Even it it were to exit completely it wouldn't have a whole lot of energy left.

But the bottom line is most classic "failures" of ammo have been traced to insufficient penetration, generally like 8-9".

 

[longhair]

You musst also condider a shot through the side. You are much wider than you are deep, usually. So a shot to the heart from the front, or back, is only a few inches, a shot to the heart from the right side may be closer to 12 inches.

 

[1gewehr]

Another factor is angle. Many shots are not straight on at an upright torso. Even a little bit of angle adds inches to the necessary penetration to reach vitals. If an aggressor is rushing towards you, a 45 degree lean will double the tissue penetration needed. Add in bones (arms, ribs, etc) and you can easily see why excessive penetration is better than insufficient penetration.

As mentioned above, having a second hole to speed up blood loss is not a bad thing if you don't hit a vital organ or nerve cluster.

 

[WoodenPlank]

As to why you might want more, there's alot of people who beleive that a hole in one side and out the other, lets more blood out, and leads to faster incapacitation. Its a common thing among hunters. The flip side, is people who are sold on muzzle energy being important, often prefer a bullet that comes to a rest inside the target, there by expending all its energy in the target.


IMO different means to the same end. All things considered, I'll take the bullet that exits personally.

For self defense, I want something that penetrates as deep as possible, but does NOT exit, so all energy is spent inside the bad guy. Bleeding out takes too long to stop someone in many cases. Bleeding out can have it's benefits in an offensive/military role, however.

I've also read that the skin on the far side does a good job of keeping the bullet within the body if it's slowed down enough already, because the skin is so elastic. Even it it were to exit completely it wouldn't have a whole lot of energy left.

But the bottom line is most classic "failures" of ammo have been traced to insufficient penetration, generally like 8-9".

This has happened in some cases with 357SIG. Bullet passed through the torso and was found just inside the skin on the opposite side, in clothing on the opposite side, or found on the ground 3-10 feet behind the BG.

Another factor is angle. Many shots are not straight on at an upright torso. Even a little bit of angle adds inches to the necessary penetration to reach vitals. If an aggressor is rushing towards you, a 45 degree lean will double the tissue penetration needed. Add in bones (arms, ribs, etc) and you can easily see why excessive penetration is better than insufficient penetration.

As mentioned above, having a second hole to speed up blood loss is not a bad thing if you don't hit a vital organ or nerve cluster.

Blood loss still takes too long, but if the bastard stops fighting and bleeds to death before EMTs get there, I'm not going to cry about it.

It's nice to see plenty of people mentioning bone in this thread, since it seems like many people either don't know or forget that ballistic gel is designed to simulate tissue alone. If I'm not mistaken, it was originally designed as a analog to pork thigh muscle.

 

[TalkToTheGlock]

If I hit you in the chest witg a sledgehammer I have no penatration and still kill you.


iPhone 4

 

[vafish]

When comparing ballistic gelatin to humans, you have to remember that average penetration in humans equals average penetration in gelatin.

The problem is that since gelatin is a homogeneous substance the variation is much smaller. So the variation for ten shots into gelatin might be 11-13 inches with an average of 12 inches the same bullet used in ten actual shootings might vary from 6 to 18 inches with an average of 12 inches.

 

[Brian Lee]

I wouldn't consider 12 inches over kill. Overkill is when guys carry a 10MM for SD use and keep it loaded with 200 grain flat points that were designed for killing big game with 24 inches on penetration. That sort of ammo used on humans would just carry energy out the backside of the target. IMO, a 155/165 grain projectile (but I'm talking specific to the 10MM here) at higher speed is more devastating to humans because of the more explosive impact it has. The extra damage to the front side of the target will outweigh the argument that "two holes bleed better than one".

Which will make more bleeding, and which would incapacitate quicker? To be pierced clear through, and slowly, with a straightened coat hanger wire, or to have a 3 inch wide crater blown halfway into your chest, even though it has no exit wound? I say put ALL the energy into the bad guy, and don't let any of it get wasted by exiting his body. But don't worry that a 9MM claiming 12 inches is overkill. It's about right.

 

[Tired Retired]

The 12" penetration standard (along with the 4 layers of denim) is a STANDARDIZED test established by the FBI. It came as a direct result of the 1986 Miami shootout where 2 FBI agents were killed and several wounded. It was found that that the terminal ballistics of the ammo used at that time contributed to the death of the agents. While the two suspects involved had been mortally wounded by the FBI agents, it took siginificant time for them both to bleed out. A reconstruction of the event showed that the two agents had been shot by the suspects between the time of the suspects receiving mortal wounds and the time they passed out from loss of blood. The 12" jello standard was one of many things the FBI did (development of 10mm and then the .40 cal, etc, etc) to ensure that they would not lose field agents again due to being under-gunned.

 

[AK_Stick]

I wouldn't consider 12 inches over kill. Overkill is when guys carry a 10MM for SD use and keep it loaded with 200 grain flat points that were designed for killing big game with 24 inches on penetration. That sort of ammo used on humans would just carry energy out the backside of the target. IMO, a 155/165 grain projectile (but I'm talking specific to the 10MM here) at higher speed is more devastating to humans because of the more explosive impact it has. The extra damage to the front side of the target will outweigh the argument that "two holes bleed better than one".

Which will make more bleeding, and which would incapacitate quicker? To be pierced clear through, and slowly, with a straightened coat hanger wire, or to have a 3 inch wide crater blown halfway into your chest, even though it has no exit wound? I say put ALL the energy into the bad guy, and don't let any of it get wasted by exiting his body. But don't worry that a 9MM claiming 12 inches is overkill. It's about right.

Just remember, energy, by itself isn't a killing factor. With handguns, the two major wounding factors, are penetration by the bullet, and blood loss. Unless you hit the CNS, handguns just dont have the incapacitating power.


I personally want as big a hole as possible, all the way through. I also want the power to penetrate anything that might be in the way, and still deliver sufficient performance on the target.

 

[bmylesk]

as long as it fires, i dont care about ballistics.

 

[.45Super-Man]

The fear/panic of overpenetration has been WAY overblown through the years. The ammo companies have really cashed in with alot of these parlor shop, "specialty" loads.

 

[93GT]

Penetration, controllability, reliability, reasonable combat accuracy are all must haves. Expansion, extra energy, capacity, are all just extra things I strive to achieve in addition to those. They don't matter nearly as much if you can't hit, hit again if not incapacitated, or reach vital organs when you do hit. As far as exiting the body or staying just inside the body, I don't care as long as will at least reach the latter reliably. I have a better chance of missing a moving target shooting back at me and hitting something behind it than hitting the target and worrying about it exiting the other side. If it isn't safe to shoot if you have a near miss, it most likely is not a good shot to take to begin with.

 

[gatorboy]

If I hit you in the chest witg a sledgehammer I have no penatration and still kill you.

Very profound, thanks for sharing.

as long as it fires, i dont care about ballistics.

Fascinating!