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Discussion in 'General Firearms Forum' started by JPARANEE, Jul 11, 2020.
I don’t know the other guy, but what’s you axe to grind with Mas Ayoob?
If you leave all the safety features intact and stay within factory trigger pull weight, I think all is well.
I don’t presume to speak for him but I’m assuming that his ax has something to do with the decades of hard won street experience and contrasting it with Mas’ who was a small town Sheriffs deputy for a very short while and was able to somehow parlay this into being a world-renowned expert. I like Mas but can see where that would be grating to a highly experienced LEO.
I can particularly see it regarding the other guy who looks and sounds like a gun nerd whose big acclaim is to just sit back and watch videos of shootings while pretending to know what the answers are in highly kinetic and fast moving situations that he has never, and will never, be in. Looking like an adolescent dough boy with zero gravitas doesn’t help, to be sure.
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Always love listening to Mas Ayoob. With that said, I recently finished what I believe will be my last self defense class (a red dot workshop) and also my last carry handgun. A G26 with an RMR, Apex trigger, grip reduction, stippling and trigger guard undercut.
It's all the things I looked for in a carry pistol; small, light, decent capacity and great texture for wet or perspiring hands. And the RMR really improves my accuracy. When I couldn't find a pistol that had all the things I was looking for, I decided to take my favorite and add what I wanted.
It continues to be reliable, carries well and is fun to shoot. I guess I'm willing to take my chances. And I may be wrong, but it seems some instructors have made modifications to their carry guns as well, at least one or two I can think of. Maybe they only carry them while training. Who knows.
Time will tell, I guess.
I think ‘good shoot’ or not factors in more than Gun particulars. I do say, Mas has a voice made for courtroom theater, nice gig.
After I wrote my first post I realized I'd forgotten that the NY-1 trigger with the -1 connector installed is the recipe for the six-pound trigger pull and improved break. (So I've read many times here on GT)
I believe Mas's opinion is that this modification (with the -1 connector) would be defensible because it increases the stock Glock factory trigger pull by a half pound and would be defensible in court the same way the 8# and 12# NY-1/NY-2 Glock triggers are.
If my memory is faulty please, anyone, correct me.
Do we have any evidence of a good shoot being influenced by a custom modification such as a trigger?
I respect Mas’s courtroom knowledge. But even an expert can be wrong occasionally ( see Col Cooper and the scout rifle).
I got a SCREAMING DEAL on an entire G17 upper (slide, barrel, striker, etc.....) Here in CA I can't have a threaded barrel, but I can have a welded compensator over a threaded barrel, and I didn't want to use my matching SN slide for that. Anyway.........
Then I put it on a frame I had trouble with it the trigger simply releasing the striker. WTF????? the entire frame is OEM.
Swapped out the striker, and safety plunger for OEM ones, and all was good.
Point is, someone thought they were dumping garbage on me, and because they didn't know what they were doing I got an OEM slide and barrel combo for $200 because someone was clueless.
I've rebuilt my race motorcycle engines bolt for bolt and taken them down 100%, replaced cranks, replaced timing chains, replaced pistons and rings, timed valves, you name it.
There are people out there that can tinker around on guns with a sliver of a fraction the complexity of a combustion engine. But that said. What I ride on the street is "stock" and what I keep in the home defense nightstand is also.
100% ok to tinker with range toys. Not OK for personal defense, and not OK to charge people if you aren't a bonded professional.
Comment on triggers............
KNOW YOUR GUN!!!!!!!
KNOW THE SAFETY RULES OF GUNS!!!!!!!!!!!
Years ago at a range I was there with my Les Baer. 1911 with an excellent stock trigger. The guy next to me was with a G29 (10mm compact). We get to talking like guys at the range do and we let each other shoot the other's gun.
The moment he picked up the 4lb trigger off the deck it went off. It was still horizontal to the table.
Jesus guy............ keep your finger off the g-damn trigger.
People ignore the basic safety rules because they use heavy triggers as a safety crutch, and when they pick up a gun they are unfamiliar with..............BOOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I don’t understand the thought of only riding a stock vehicle any more than the insistence of only carrying a stock firearm.
Almost none of my guns are stock, and yet with the exception of only a couple very old, or very tired guns, I would use any of them to defend myself, because I have shot them all and know they work.
Use quality parts, if you can’t, then have them installed by someone who knows what they’re doing, and test the weapon for function/train with it.
All of the “only stock” comments make me think some of you don’t shoot very often.
Come on folks. Lighten up on trying to make everything black & white.
Mas has the benefit of many years of learning what may happen inside a courtroom when cases involve the use of firearms.
Forewarned is forearmed, if you use the info to educate yourself.
Sometimes jurors, even though they're the finders of fact, may be influenced by feelings, perceptions and misconceptions.
Just how hard do you want to make your attorney work on your behalf in front of any jurors who may end up sitting in the jury box of your criminal or civil trial?
Choose wisely. Will it even matter in something that comes your way? Dunno. Don't claim to know. I can only choose for myself.
Hopefully everyone will make an informed choice that suits their needs. The consequences of your choice are going to be yours to bear, for good or ill.
He also has a job to do, which is sell his brand and knowledge.
I would be very curious to see some evidence of cases that were legitimate, but got turned against the shooter because he had modified a trigger or some other trivial part of the gun.
Everyone likes to talk about Mr Fish (IIRC) and the caliber of his gun being brought up, but even if we leave out the end result, that’s a statistical outlier.
Maybe if people actually watch the videos. Modifications can be a non issue in court. But they can become a issue in some cases. They mentioned “hair triggers”. For the specific reason Reason it can be claimed you didn’t intend to fire....
Its normally a issue that if it comes up, can be dealt with. 4 lbs I guess is the standard lowest trigger for a 1911 type self defense gun? If your gun tests at 3 lb 15 oz it should be ok if you never wavered. “He raised his gun, I shot him”
But same as using hand loads. It adds a possible level of confusion, complexity. That your lawyer will have to address.
When you see enough weird and unexpected things come along in investigations, you realize that you can't predict how people will react, or what seemingly inconsequential factor might become a brush fire depending on how the wind is blowing.
I've long since given up any pretense of thinking I'm able to predict whether people will react to things that ought not have any importance to the matter at hand ... or being surprised when they allow something to be made out of nothing.
It's up to each person to consider making their own "best informed" decision about how they think it prudent to try and reduce their unnecessary exposure to preventable liability.
Just when you think something isn't going to be a problem ... you're wrong. Roll the dice, but consider the stakes and the risk/benefit ratio.
It's about risk management. You want to manage the risk, even if belatedly ... or at least manage the exposure to the risk ... or pretend there's no risk?
People can be weird, but that's not a surprise.
Did you watch the video in the OP? I posted this earlier in the thread. Sometimes it's not just about an acquittal.
Let me start by saying that I carry a stock gun, but that's in large part because I haven't seen the need to change anything. That said, any time I consider modifying my carry gun, I weigh the advantages against the risks. I'm fine with high-advantage, low-risk modifications, and not fine with low-advantage, high-risk ones. I'd put night sights in the first category, and grips that said "kill 'em all & let God sort them out" in the second.
With that said, there's a recent interesting (but non-precedential) case against a guy that shot his girlfriend (?) with an AR. Now, let me start by saying that the defendant has a whole slew of credibility problems. Things like using meth and hiding from the police. So his case was never an "unquestionably good SD shoot." What's interesting about it is that he claimed not to really understand how his AR worked and that he accidentally shot the victim. The trial court did not believe him. Part of that seems to have been based on the fact that he installed the trigger himself. So the problem in that case isn't even the trigger itself, it's the interplay between the fact that he installed the trigger and then tried to claim the shooting was accidental.
ETA: I'll add that there are a handful of cases out there involving gun modifications. Unfortunately, the names escape me at the moment and I'm swamped at work today. That said, they tend to break down into two categories: (1) mechanical issues (shooter modifies gun and the way it functions becomes an issue); and (2) jury perception problems (the aforementioned 'Kill 'em all' grips; no impact on firearm function, but may cause the jury some heartburn).
I think the idea is to think about the mods, and how the gun will be used, when deciding on what to do.
I don't think Mas is arguing against that. But remember, if you have to use the thing for defense, you're going to be judged by 12 idiots who couldn't get out of jury duty.
Mas has a shvtload of experience in the courtroom arena, which is the issue being discussed.
If it comes down to "either carry a stock gun and die in the gunfight, or carry a modded one and survive to be put on trial" well.....the answer is obvious. But for anyone who knows how to shoot this shouldn't be an issue.
Yeah - good call. Skulls, "Smile, wait for flash" on the muzzle, "you're fvcked" on the inside of the ejection port cover......leave that stuff off.
Carry guns are serious tools for serious work.
Damn impressive resume. Seriously. Thank you for your service.
That stuff will help you survive the shoot.
But Mas is an expert in what happens next - the courtroom arena, which is the topic of discussion. You may want to at least listen to the man. Then take the info and do what you will with it. But remember, shoot someone and you could well be at the mercy of a prosecutor and 12 idiots who were too dumb to get out of jury duty.
I don't know who the other guy is.
Sounds like you got what Mas was trying to say.
No, I don’t watch much he says these days, because I’ve already heard most of it, and from having spoken to him both in person and here on GT, I have a fairly good grasp of his position on such matters as I was around for many similar discussions when he was a more frequent poster.
I’ll have to look into those cases mentioned in the article, precious little information is given about them, and I suspect that’s for a particular reason.
It may have never influenced anything. But I don't want to be the first one it happens to.
There are mods that work. Sights, grips, smoothing the trigger. But don't be an idiot with it.