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Attn:KY, OH, TN, residents.

Discussion in 'Carry Issues' started by LEOINTRAINING, Feb 18, 2011.

  1. PAGunner

    PAGunner

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    With all due respect Russ, the OP did say they have hired security at the store. Why would a manager need to approach him if they have hired security? Security signs up to be... Well.... SECURITY. If the manager wanted someone booted (and they absolutely have the right to boot anyone for anything), why didn't they have security ask him politely to leave? That is the logical first step, not calling the police when the OP wasn't breaking any laws, threatening customers. Instead, he was minding his own business, nothing illegal or "dangerous" about that.

    Imagine if every store just decided to call the cops out to kick people out they didn't want in the store? Police resources being wasted on such petty non-sense. There was nothing illegal, no one threatened, so where was the need for police?
     
  2. IndyGunFreak

    IndyGunFreak

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    If you were the normal, unarmed security guard, would you be comfortable going to confront an unknown, openly armed man? I probably wouldn't. Whether they had security or not... this was bound to end up w/ the police called.
     

  3. Jackalo626

    Jackalo626

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    Wow haha this post was pure garbage. Well known illegal act you are trying to compare to his. Also you think that you can't do things that might offend someone? You can't wear a red shirt anymore because someone might be offended due to them not liking the color red. This is the liberal mind at work right here. Don't hurt anyones feelings by being an individual. PS he did have a "right" even when asked to leave the property to carry but just not on their property any longer.
     
  4. Nest

    Nest

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    I do agree that legally everything was done correctly, but again lots of things in the past were legal for the police to do until the courts decided otherwise.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2011
  5. IndyGunFreak

    IndyGunFreak

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    Next time yell... "Am I being detained!"

    OP... Go share your story on Opencarry.org forums... You'll get the kind of responses you're looking for.

    IGF
     
  6. Seraph

    Seraph

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    ... And having a right to do something doesn't mean you must flaunt it, against common prudence. Tweaking the liberals by showing off your hip iron in public doesn't help the cause at all, and there are some good reasons besides that for keeping your sidearm discreetly concealed.
     
  7. RussP

    RussP Super Moderator Moderator

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    You're right.

    However, please see Post #72 below.
    Police are called out all the time to deal with issues they shouldn't have to get into. That is a well known fact. Where was the need for the police? A man with a gun with unknown intentions, unknown state of mind, just chilling with his wife on a sofa in the rear of a book store, with unknown intentions, unknown state of mind, just reading, with...

    Did it warrant 6 officers? What if only one officer responded and it wasn't LEOINTRAINING? What if it was another Loughner, only calmer at that moment. Did you know cops run what-ifs through their heads, too, just like you and me, and prepare appropriate responses?
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2011
  8. Dragoon44

    Dragoon44 Unfair Facist Lifetime Member

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    I would bet that their security is unarmed that being the case I don't see why they would not call the police to deal with an armed person they want removed.

    I find it interesting the mindset of many gun folks. they think the world a far to dangerous place to ever leave home without having a gun. But on the other hand think it is somehow wrong or irrational that a store owner or employee is reluctant to approach and armed individual in what could potentially turn out to be a confrontation.
     
  9. kensteele

    kensteele

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    I wouldn't be comfortable with approaching a big ugly guy with a gold tooth either so let's call the police on him, too. Looks like a gang banger to me, I'll just call the police, let them deal with him.

    I guess it up to the store owner to decide who he calls the police on and who he sends his security guard to. Let's leave it totally up to the store owners, historically they've been pretty good at deciding how they want to handle these types of situation.
     
  10. Sharp105

    Sharp105

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    So what was the actual issue here?

    All I know is that I'm not open carrying into a Panera or a hippie coffee shop because the subsequent reaction will be obvious.

    Oh, and some law students are down to Earth. Don't paint us all with a broad brush.
     
  11. IndyGunFreak

    IndyGunFreak

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    That's a ridiculous analogy, but I'm assuming you know that. A Gold Tooth isn't a weapon to be used against an unarmed person.

    When I did security (many years ago).. I walked up to people who were armed and asked them to leave... I never personally had a problem. There were others, who absolutely would not do that...

    Like someone said above... Is he gonna be the peaceful guy who walks out quietly, or a Jared Laughner... it's tough to blame unarmed security for calling the police and asking them to eject someone who is obviously armed.

    IGF
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2011
  12. RussP

    RussP Super Moderator Moderator

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    Okay, I knew I had a reference point for my comment.
     
  13. Dragoon44

    Dragoon44 Unfair Facist Lifetime Member

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    What you THINK doesn't really matter what the law says does matter.

    There is no such thing as "secret arrest" in order to be under arrest legally you have to be informed that you are under arrest. The Correct word to use in your example is DETAINED not arrest. If a reasonable person feels they are not free to leave then they are as far as the law is concerned "Detained". They are not under arrest unless the officer has advised them they are.

    Yes if you own the property you can call the cops on whoever you want. Tell the cops there is a person there you want removed and more than likely they will come and do just that.

    That was Garner Vs. Tennessee

    And for the record cops can still shoot fleeing felons if the felon presents a material risk or danger to the community if allowed to get away.

    You are seriously mistaken if you believe that when officers are called by a property owner and told they want you removed from the property that you can ignore the officers and even refuse to acknowledge their presence. Try that little trick and you can expect to find yourself face down, cuffed then transported to jail.

    You really need to educate yourself. Confiscated comes from the Latin "confiscatio" and means "Joined to the fiscus" ( transfer to the treasury)

    Confiscated items are NOT just returned without a legal process being involved. That is because when an item is confiscated there is no intention of returning it.

    So rather than being what a "reasonable" person would believe it is what a person ignorant of what confiscation really is would believe.


    If you actually think that then why don't you just carry a pencil instead of a gun? problem solved, no one panics at the sight of a pencil but since they are both the same then you are still well protected.

    There have been plenty of people that showed no signs of being a threat that turned out to be just that. Even when there was no discernible reason for them to be a threat or to do what they eventually did.

    I would bet the reason you carry a gun is not because you are defending your life everyday but rather because of the potential that you might have to.
     
  14. kensteele

    kensteele

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    I was trying to be PC but it probably didn't come off right.
     
  15. firefighter4215

    firefighter4215

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    Yep, that's exactly what I would say. If you asked most guys on this board what the result would be of an open carry attempt at a book store 9 out of 10 would predict something very similar to what the OP experienced. Now I'm not a big fan of open carry in an urban environment. If you're on your farm, out in the woods, or just making a quick stop to get gas or something on the way home from hunting or something then that's one thing. I'll not turn this into an open carry debate. I wasn't there so I have no idea what tone of voice the officers used with the OP. The officer who said "This is Lexington, keep it concealed" was probably trying to give you a great piece of advice. He wasn't saying you were doing something illegal. He was trying to prevent you from this having to go through this experience again and keep you from what effectively was wasting the time of six officers who could've been out doing something more productive. I've said it before, and others have already said it in this thread...Just because it's legal doesn't make it a good idea.

    Also regarding the sign...it carries no legal weight in KY as it would in other states. In OH, for example, "knowingly" carrying on posted property is a misdemeanor. That's not the case in KY. I'm not stating my opinion of ignoring the sign, just saying that I think it may not have been relevant in this situation, since carrying past it still isn't illegal.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2011
  16. RussP

    RussP Super Moderator Moderator

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    I do believe I've read that before...

    Oh, I remember. You posted those same thoughts, what, a few dozen times?

    Has anyone responded countering what you say?
     
  17. 1canvas

    1canvas

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    i don't understand how people can display a firearm in public, reguardless of the law, and are shocked when they get hassled.
     
  18. kensteele

    kensteele

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    right now, as of today, you are correct. as shop owner has a right to be scared of a man doing nothing more than carrying a firearm.

    i predict that is going to change. here's what i predict: the shop owner will no longer have a right to adversely deal with a patron simply because he carries a firearm. the law will expressly forbid it and the penalties will reinforce it to the extent shop owners' behaviour will change whether they like it or not. so today, yes you are correct and you cannot be countered. but remember this country's history.
     
  19. kensteele

    kensteele

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    really? can you give me another example where something is your right and is lawful but you don't understand how people are not shocked when they get hassled for it?
     
  20. Dragoon44

    Dragoon44 Unfair Facist Lifetime Member

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    No, apparently they don't mind holding contradictory thoughts and believing both are equally true. They just mind having it pointed out to them.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2011