Attacking and robbing cyclist (former cop)

Discussion in 'Tactics and Training' started by Taft93730, Apr 16, 2018 at 8:16 AM.

  1. Taft93730

    Taft93730

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  2. Berto

    Berto woo woo

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    Hard to say, since no one knows exactly how they initiated the attack. They either clubbed him as he rode past, or shoved him off his bike and he may have hit his head...maybe he stopped and offered help, who knows?
     

  3. Taft93730

    Taft93730

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    Yup, and even if you carry, not sure how to deal with it while riding. Certainly won’t be stopping to help anyone.
     
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  4. Berto

    Berto woo woo

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    To me, it's sort of like trying to plan around having a piano fall on your head.
    As a cyclist, there's already plenty of risk when riding a road like that; getting clipped by a truck mirror, texting soccer mom or pissed bro-dozer, flatting on road debris that inevitably gets swept into bike Lanes...or just running into something.
    Trying to put myself in that guys cleats...being retired LEO, he probably offered help and got jumped. If I'm on my own, come around a bend and see a car pulled off with trunk and hood open, I might swing wide if possible and go around. They obviously picked the time/place, saw he had property worth risking it and he was on the wrong side of the 'loop'.
     
  5. fredj338

    fredj338

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    I used to be a runner & cyclist, far more dangerous things to worry about being on a road with 4000# cars. In todays society, the good sameritan is at high risk even if armed. I can only suggest ll of us pay these scenarios out in our heads & be ready for anything.
     
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  6. Taco Junkie

    Taco Junkie Practically a saint

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    Not living in CA or visiting there would be a start. These criminals are the people they want and are welcoming with open arms.

    Too bad it's a retired LEO. Hope he has a quick and full recovery.
     
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  7. mac66

    mac66 Huge Member Millennium Member

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    Could be a case of situational awareness or lack thereof.

    I pack when I ride. If I get attacked, lead will fly.
     
  8. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    Trying to survive an ambush probably isn't as preferable as avoiding being caught up in one in the first place. The only consistently effective way to avoid being ambushed ... is to avoid situations where an ambush is possible.

    Considering the first thing the victim retired cop remembers after approaching the stopped suspects is waking up in the hospital, it's more than a little likely that if he'd been armed, the suspects would now have possession of his retirement weapon.

    The same result might be just as likely for any other lawfully armed private citizen who is ambushed so quickly that he/she would never have the opportunity to realize a situation was so dire that it would require defending themselves with deadly force, and they were successfully attacked and overcome before being able to do anything about it.

    Until these suspects are identified and apprehended there's no way to know whether they opportunistically attacked and robbed this bicyclist, and were actually waiting & hoping for a "good Samaritan" driving a motor vehicle to come along and stop to see if they needed help.

    People who enjoy walking, running or bicycling in the great outdoors need to keep in mind that danger comes in many forms, and not being inside a veh often makes us more vulnerable to attack and injury.
     
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  9. FireForged

    FireForged Millenium #3936 Millennium Member

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    Being realistic, if you are actually targeted, you are not likely going to avoid an ambush it if occurs in normal public spaces. If the attack happened in a dark alley at 2am...yeah, I think you could likely avoid that circumstance but I doubt that is what we are talking about here. Initiative is a powerful advantage and the victim is already well behind the curve when these things light off. I think that a good many people are fooling themselves if they think they will even have a hint that the fight is coming. The hint will likely be when the ground suddenly comes up and smacks you.

    People can talk about situational awareness, reactionary gaps, 21 foot rule, spidey sense, jedi precog...yadda yadda yaddda. Well, life just doesn't always allow for the use of all those pretty sounding mantras and acronyms that people like to toss around in forums. Despite your best efforts and desires, sometimes the fight is simply going to come.

    If you are lucky and I mean really lucky or if you are attacked by goofballs, you may get a red flag if you are looking closely enough. In my estimation and speaking generally, unless you are working with a team of people situated in several different vantage points, there isn't really much situational awareness to go on when you are working alone, using 180 degrees and intermittent 360 at eye level.

    I agree that a person should always pay attention but if you expect to have a good grasp of your "situation" while riding a bike alone, you probably wont. These things are exceptionally hard to avoid and all you can pretty much do is be prepared, be alert, be fit and have a measure of grit to defend yourself.

    As I said before, the good guy is already well behind the curve. I wish this victim a speedy recovery and I would be reluctant to assign any blame to a guy minding his own business. This is more likely a wrong place at wrong time sorta thing and not a lack of awareness.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2018 at 7:52 PM
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  10. sourdough44

    sourdough44

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    I’ve been known to help a stranded motorist at times, really try to keep the guard up while doing so. Things can be very different than they appear.

    For starters, ‘3 males’ around the vehicle is sadly already a ‘red flag’. Maybe swing the bike wide & call for help if they request it. I agree, with certain situations it can be hard to keep ahead of a threat. That’s not to say that one shouldn’t try though.
     
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  11. Will Beararms

    Will Beararms Millennium Member

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    In the 1990’s, I was driving from Dallas to Tulsa one evening. On the outskirts of Atoka, OK, I pulled over to report a fire on the side of the road.

    An escaped convict came out of the bushes and tried to get into my car. The doors were locked and I vacated the premises at a high rate of speed.

    Be aware. Things are not always as they seem to be. You can always help someone by calling for help after you’ve passed them.
     
  12. Will Beararms

    Will Beararms Millennium Member

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    CA is off the rails. Sure this can happen anywhere but in CA, the politicians are purposely creating the environment for it to happen.
     
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  13. cityborncountrylivin

    cityborncountrylivin

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    I bicycled to and from work for 10 years when I lived in NYC.
    One evening on the way home a guy stepped out from between 2 parked cars and swung a baseball bat at my head. Just missed.
     
  14. MAG40 Student

    MAG40 Student Silver Member

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    FireForged,

    Not to single you out, but for the sake of everyone reading your post who doesn't know better . . . it absolutely IS NOT, NEVER HAS BEEN, NEVER WILL BE a 21-foot "rule." It is the Tueller 21-foot DRILL!

    There is NO rule, law, recommendation, suggestion, requirement, or any other restriction of any kind that precludes someone who is in reasonable fear of death or serious bodily injury either to themselves or another innocent from shooting to stop the threat someone who is more than 21-feet away.

    The Tueller Drill simply demonstrates that the average individual can close a gap of 21-feet in an average of 1.5 seconds. Some can close that gap faster and some close it slower. That's IT. That's what the Tueller Drill (a.k.a., the 21-foot DRILL) illustrates. It is not enshrined in law. It's merely intended to illustrate that even when someone's standing 21-feet away from you, they can be on top of you in the blink of an eye. And if they're holding a contact weapon like a baseball bat or a knife, they can be laying a major hurt on you even faster.

    So, to recap, it's a drill, not a rule/law/requirement/restriction/etc./etc. Let us all purge the phrase "21-foot rule" from our usage, before it unintentionally misleads someone into believing otherwise and getting hurt for their troubles.

    Stay safe all.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2018 at 10:28 AM
  15. FireForged

    FireForged Millenium #3936 Millennium Member

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    I do not feel singled out at all.. .

    There exist in half a dozen personal safety methodologies a spirit of "the rule" regarding reactionary spaces. The rule being the commonly and universally accepted minimum distance that is typically required to perform a specific action. I am not referring to any drill ( drill being an action) or anything that Tueller has said specifically. I am familiar with what you are referring to but the world is much larger than what you apparently give it credit for.

    People all over the world are entitled to there opinions regarding tactics and methodologies and its not unreasonable that many have come to similar conclusions. You say that there is not rule? REally?.. There is a 8 foot rule, a 21 foot rule, a 25 foot rule and a 180 foot rule which exist in varying methodologies, concepts and tactics regarding an physical attacks. Perhaps its simply that they do not exist in your orbit.

    to recap... I am not sure that you understood what I was referring to or what I was trying to covey. Base on your response and bolded proclamation on what IS, what ISNT and what will NEVER be... I am pretty sure that you may be having a strawman argument.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2018 at 10:20 AM
  16. MAG40 Student

    MAG40 Student Silver Member

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    FireForged,

    I think we can agree that certain words and phrases assume entirely different meanings depending upon the context in which they're used. Speaking about a yard to a landscaper references something entirely different than when ordering one from a barkeep in the U.K.

    Within the realm of handguns, the near-universal connotation of the "21-foot rule" is that associated with the findings of the Tueller Drill. Unfortunately, the valuable lesson of the Tueller Drill is often misunderstood and misinterpreted to represent an inviolate rule as to when a GG is justified to use lethal force -- a mistake that can have lethal consequences for the GG. Indeed, a quick Google search of "21-foot rule" will produce legions of articles specifically about the misinterpretation of the Tueller Drill. Here's just one example from Police One: https://www.policeone.com/edged-wea...ense-Is-or-was-the-21-foot-rule-valid-Part-1/.

    My post was not to take exception with the spot-on points of your post -- which is why I prefaced my original post by stating that I was not singling you out and that the purpose of my post was for the benefit of those who don't know that the "21-foot rule" isn't a rule at all. Nor was it to deny that 21-foot distances have significance elsewhere in the universe.

    It was to clarify that the multiple factors involved in a potential attack -- many of which you detailed in your fine original post -- are of far greater relevance to a GG effectively defending him or herself with lethal force than whether or not the GG is located within 21-feet of their would-be assailant(s), which is the common misinterpretation.

    There.

    Now we can be friends again.
     
  17. FireForged

    FireForged Millenium #3936 Millennium Member

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    Pardon me if I refuse to accept the notion that something cannot or does not exist simply because you are unaware of it or that you know more about what I have on my mind than I do.

    exactly.. so rather than assume and make several proclamations, you could have simply asked me to clarify.

    who has misinterpreted what?... who has represented rules regarding when force is justified?

    This is a strawman position which ( in my estimation) does not seem to exist in this thread. It certainly has nothing to do with my casual reference to the 21 foot rule and I was not referring loosely or otherwise to any rules, requirements or laws regarding the use of force.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2018 at 1:13 PM
  18. MAG40 Student

    MAG40 Student Silver Member

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    Now you're being argumentative, which is unbecoming.

    I have twice stated that my original remark was in reference to the common meaning and connotation of the term and that it was solely out of concern for the potentially lethal repercussions of its perpetuated misinterpretation.

    If you sought to use the term for something less prosaic, that's your business. But be forewarned. If you walk into a pub in London and declare you're buying a yard for everyone, no one will be calling their groundskeeper.
     
  19. FireForged

    FireForged Millenium #3936 Millennium Member

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    .. where does this misrepresentation exist in this thread?
     
  20. MAG40 Student

    MAG40 Student Silver Member

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    misrepresentation (your word) ≠ misinterpretation (my word)