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Atheists: From One of Your Own

Discussion in 'Religious Issues' started by Paul7, Nov 12, 2015.

  1. Paul7

    Paul7

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    John D. Steinrucken, writing in the American Thinker, "Secularism's Ongoing Debt to Christianity"

    "It is rational to conclude that religious faith has made possible the advancement of Western civilization. That is, the glue that has held Western civilization together over the centuries is the Judeo-Christian tradition. To the extent that the West loses its religious faith in favor of non-judgmental secularism, then to the same extent, it loses that which holds all else together......

    Although I am a secularist (atheist, if you will), I accept that the great majority of people would be morally and spiritually lost without religion. Can anyone seriously argue that crime and and debauchery are not held in check by religion? Is it not comforting to live in a community where the rule of law and fairness are respected? Would such be likely if Christianity were not there to provide a moral compass to the great majority? Do we secularists not benefit out of all proportion from a morally responsible society?

    An orderly society is dependent on a generally accepted morality. There can be no such morality without religion. Has there ever been a more perfect and concise moral code than the one Moses brought down from the mountain?

    Those who doubt the effect of religion on morality should seriously ask the question: Just what are the immutable moral laws of secularism? Be prepared to answer, if you are honest, that such laws simply do not exist! The best answer we can ever hear from secularists to this question is a hodgepodge of strained relativist talk of situational ethics. They can cite no overriding authority other than that of fashion. For the great majority in the West, it is the Judeo-Christian tradition which offers a template assuring a life of inner peace toward the world at large - a peace which translates to a workable liberal society."
     
  2. oldandtreacherous

    oldandtreacherous

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    Note the refreshing lack of juvenile ridicule so prevalent in, ahem, some forums.
     

  3. oldandtreacherous

    oldandtreacherous

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    Not to mention the courage....
     
  4. Qwerty357

    Qwerty357

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  5. Lone Wolf8634

    Lone Wolf8634 :):

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    Meh, no courage needed to write drivel.

    Here's a retort to that steaming pile of bovine excrement.
     
  6. TK-421

    TK-421

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    And your point is what exactly, that because one person says it then that means it's true for everybody? Or are you trying to imply that atheists are trying to claim that nobody who is an atheist holds such notions, and that this person proves them dead wrong? If not either one of those, then would you please be so kind as to let everybody know what your point of this post is, and what your thoughts and feelings are on this matter.
     
  7. JBnTX

    JBnTX 2 Timothy 2:15

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    Religion is what separates us from animals. It's mankind's moral compass.
    Without religion, mankind would have become extinct many years ago.
     
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  8. Animal Mother

    Animal Mother Not Enough Gun

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    Here's a link to the whole article, for those that are interested.

    I really don't see how Christians can see this as a compliment or a good thing. The author is saying that while he is capable of behaving in a moral manner despite a lack of religious belief, most Christians are incapable of doing so and if it weren't for their religious beliefs they'd be raging criminals tearing a path across the landscape. Paul, doesn't it bother you to be seen as a barely contained psychopath held back only by fear of punishment from a divine watchman?
    This is clearly untrue, there have been both orderly atheist societies and very disordered religious ones.
    A better question, one the author didn't address is what are the immutable moral laws of religion or of Judeo-Christianity?
    I don't think many people dispute this, but the same is true of the religious.
    And has been said many times, if the religious framework of morality is the only thing keeping you from committing horrific crimes and other random acts of violence, please keep believing for everyone's sake. However, that doesn't constitute a proof that such religious framework is necessary for a functioning society unless it is what holds most people in check.
     
  9. TK-421

    TK-421

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    Except for the fact that God murdered the entire world, sans 7 people and 2-7 of every animal depending on which version you accept and which version you ignore. So, I'd say we're actually in more danger thanks to God and religion than we would be without it. At least if you piss off an atheist they can't wipe out the entire world.
     
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  10. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    Well, to be fair, what's considered to be the oldest written code of laws (282 of them?) is the Babylonian King's Law, the Code of Hammurabi.

    Of course, to be fair to a further degree, it was also reputed to have been handed to Man by the Sun God of Babylon (Shamash), which puts it in the category of being of divine origin. Much more detailed, practically useful and socially relevant than a simple list of 10 commandants.
     
  11. JBnTX

    JBnTX 2 Timothy 2:15

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    Never read the Bible, have you?

    Most of your posts are immature and childish responses that betray a deep seated hatred for Christianity.
    I just wonder why?
     
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  12. TK-421

    TK-421

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    I have actually read the bible several times, and obviously have a better understanding of it than you do, as, unlike you, I have not only the ability to question what I read, but the desire to find out the truth. I do not believe everything I see or read and try to find out more, which doesn't seem to be the case with you.

    My posts are neither immature nor childish, and I don't have a deep seated hatred for Christianity, simply the fact that I don't like people who wish to violate the US Constitution, as you have openly stated on countless occasions that you have no greater desire than to violate the US Constitution and force your version of reality onto the entire country.
     
  13. Paul7

    Paul7

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    From your link:

    "As an atheist, he doesn’t believe that there is anything behind Christian faith. And though the somewhat-Christian West is at the top of the pyramid at the moment, other societies have advanced quite well without Christianity—consider the Islamic Golden Age, China’s many dynasties, the Aztecs and Olmecs in Central America, the Incas and Aymara in the Andes, Mali and Egypt in Africa, Greece and Babylon in the Eastern Mediterranean, Angkor and Sukhothai in Southeast Asia, and India. He has a long way to go to show that Christianity does something that other religions don’t."

    So why didn't human rights as we know them arise in those places? He might want to pick his examples more carefully, the Aztecs at one point were killing several hundred thousand human sacrifice victims a year. One reason the Spanish so readily found Indian allies willing to defeat them.
     
  14. Paul7

    Paul7

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    Cite?
     
  15. Paul7

    Paul7

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    100,000,000 dead in Communist regimes last century isn't the whole world, but it's significant.
     
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  16. Paul7

    Paul7

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    It wasn't murder any more than it is murder when we execute a criminal or go to war. Their guilt was based on gross sin, you might want to take a lesson there. What does a time before even Abraham have to do with Christian society, the subject of the OP? Don't worry, God has promised it won't happen again.
     
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  17. JBnTX

    JBnTX 2 Timothy 2:15

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    Well you got that part right.

    I do wish that America was a Christian country, completely free of pagans, atheists and other godless heathens that are destroying this country. Hell, throw out all those mackerel snapping, idol worshiping Catholics too.

    Let's get back to the basic fundamentals of the Bible without all the liberal, wishy washy, feel good Christians that are polluting Christianity today.

    This would be a better country.
     
  18. fastbolt

    fastbolt

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    I applaud your willingness to give expression to what you've hinted here and there in various posts.

    I've often wondered if the Constitution and BOR not ceding power and authority to your specific version of divine worship has been bothersome to you over the years. Does it rankle that Jesus isn't mentioned prominently in those documents? Just a couple of references to a Creator and God must've seemed like a major oversight to some ultra-religious 'we know best' folks since those times.

    On the other hand, I've long since decided that the founders actually had their reasons for not establishing a theocracy for their new country. Unlike modern times, they must've had some very bitter and recent experience in having had someone try to run their lives for them, telling them how to think and behave. It makes perfect sense that they didn't want to create a new theocracy, even though they allowed persons of such misguided persistence to establish themselves as citizens of the new country, as long as they kept to themselves and allowed other citizens the same respect.

    Just out of curiosity, is there some country in the world where you think your particular brand of religious governance currently exists, to the exclusions of a democracy or democratic republic?

    If so, why haven't you kicked the dust of this nation off your sandals and beat feet there? :)
     
  19. Dave514

    Dave514

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    I encourage everyone who has ever had to answer questions here about why non believers have opinions on religion, or why they want to discuss 'religious issues', bookmark this example. The above post, in combination with the recent Lapm9 post of...

    ...are prime examples of the elitist apocalyptic death cult members hiding among us in society. Not simply with deep seated mythological beliefs that have no evidence of being true but active desires with a perceived divine right to impose on others at level that violate basic human rights. They are only a short thought from carrying Old Testament "god" inspired atrocities.

    These are people who not only feel they have a divine right over you but they also feel that any wrong they do can be forgiven by vicarious redemption when they cast their sins on a human sacrifice from 2000 years ago. No conscience, no remorse, just forgiveness and absolution for any horrific act.

    Not every one of them will be as vocal as a few here and some are not even clear in their own minds as to how elitist their cult is but only a short stint here should reveal that you are not going to reason with most and logic will not save you. Even the repeated remarks by them that you will bow before their god after you die, and the pleasure they take in stating it, should make you take note that they have a deep seated distain. The prospect of your pain is their pleasure.
     
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  20. JBnTX

    JBnTX 2 Timothy 2:15

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    America should be that country. We were headed that way until liberalism took over.
    Every time a liberal opens his mouth this country moves farther away from God and closer to Satan.

    You've got the founding fathers intentions all wrong. They didn't want a Catholic or a Protestant controlled government like they had in literally every European country. They didn't want the government telling people they had to be either Catholic or Protestant. They were not concerned with other religions, just Christianity.

    Freedom of religion means the right to practice Christianity as you see fit without interference from the government.
    It does not mean you have an equal right to worship any god you choose, or no god at all.

    Worshiping of any god you choose is paganism, and I don't think the founding fathers intended for us to be a pagan country with all religions and atheism being considered as equals. But that's what we have today.
     
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