Army Reserve should technically pay soldiers to go to matches

Discussion in 'GSSF' started by Snoopy47, Feb 20, 2020.

  1. Snoopy47

    Snoopy47

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    So.......... this is mostly for those folks in the military, and I'm lucky enough my commander approved my request as a reservist to attend a match in lieu of going to a Drill Weekend.

    So for those half way interested in what I'm talking about to make that happen reference AR 350-66 below to validate the match itself is considered military training and AR 140-185 to either classify that training as re-scheduled training (RST) which replaces your attendance at a Battle Assembly with the match, OR possibly an Equivalent Training (ET) which could be in ADDITION TO your annual drill attendance and pick up as much as 4 more retirement points just for attending matches.

    Yes, yes........ I've already looked for a pathway to just randomly attend matches and rack up retirement points in addition to Monthly Drill but these are the only ones I found so far. So it looks like if your command is cool enough about it you could get 4 additional points for the sake of having just gone to a match, OR skip out on drill all together if the match conflicts.

    AR 350-66
    Chapter 2
    2.1
    section a)

    a. Army personnel of all components will be provided opportunities to prepare for, and participate in, small arms marksmanship competitions. These preparations, which include those for international competitions, are classified as training

    AR 140-185
    Use RST's or an ET (maximum of 4 ET points per year).
     
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  2. PM720

    PM720

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  3. MajorD

    MajorD

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    When I was on a guard team, funding and approval for match activity was like pulling teeth.
    We would get non pay orders to go to military sanctioned matches such as the Winston p Wilson all army and regional matches, but not for any civilian matches. There was a time the services actively supported teams for thing like bullseye competition but those days are sadLy gone. If you can get your command will give you pay orders travel voucher money or in lieu of drills for matches that is great
     
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  4. Snoopy47

    Snoopy47

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    Like you mention, getting paid to go and travel expenses is like pulling teeth, and I'm not even bothering with that. What I got was an RST, and simply will
    straight up trade attending a drill day for going to a match day. The match itself is my alternative training verses going to drill. So I quasi get paid because I will get my drill pay for attending the event, but none of the associated costs.

    I'm not going to lie, I think I got lucky. I am new to the unit, and the day off I asked for will be during the unit's Annual Training of which I am not attending anyway. It will be a ghost town during March's drill weekend anyway while the majority of the unit is away. No one is going to miss the new supply officer.

    Also, the unit I am with is a Joint Command level unit, so my approving commander is an O6.

    The regulation supports it, so why the hell not, and I basically don't have to dilly dally around with going through my squad leader, then my platoon SGT, then my platoon leader, then the company commander, or anyone higher.

    So as long as I can keep my plate clean I hope to be able to continue to milk this unit's atmosphere.

    The regulation supports it, and those above me are not getting bent out of shape about it, and no one is going to challenge the O6 that approved it.

    I know as anyone else this wont last.

     
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  5. Snoopy47

    Snoopy47

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    Well, it's semantics for one. The regulation says "marksmanship competition". It doesn't say it has to be my assigned weapon (which is a pistol by the way). Also, the regulation doesn't say I have to use a military issued weapon out of our Armory (which would effectively DEAD LINE any such request).

    While it looks like I requested a "BIG ASK" from the perspective from anyone remotely associated with the Army Reserves, it technically shouldn't be. The regulation is there to support it.

    One just has to reference the correct Regulation and use the correct Form. The objective is to put it on a silver platter for the approving commander and already have any potential questions he might ask answered.

    My having previously been a Company Commander does help my cause because I kind of know the game.

    Now, if I find myself in command again, or the OIC of a section I will probably not be able to side line those duties to go and play.
     
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  6. DannyR

    DannyR Moderator Millennium Member

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    And any prizes you win should be turned over to your unit. They paid for it.
     
  7. FillYerHands

    FillYerHands you son of a

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    Ah. Memories of when GSSF held matches at Fort Benning and the AMU were the ROs. One of them taught me to shoot from reset, and it changed my life.
     
  8. Bren

    Bren NRA Life Member

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    I am in the Army Reserve and I get paid to go to matches several times a year, both by my home unit and by the USAR Competitive Marksmanship Program. Technically, I can probably also put in DA 1380s for retirement points when I go practice and shoot local matches on my own, because shooting bullseye pistol and practicing are part of my military duties, but that would get complicated, since the unit that pays me normally and the unit that pays me for shooting pistols are different.

    I got started when a 1SG, now CSM, called me and asked me to be on his team for a combat-style pistol and rifle match at Ft. McCoy - the USAR Small Arms Championship (aka "All Army Reserve"). I came in second there and was asked to to try out for the USAR Service Pistol Team, which I have been on since January 2018.

    The 1SG who invited me to join that team became our battalion CSM and started conducting competitive Excellence in Competition matches in conjunction with our semi-annual pistol and rifle qualifications. At least 1 or 2 EIC badges are awarded by the USAMU every time the battalion does a match. I got my EIC rifle badge at a special week-long competition we did within the battalion last year. This year he had approved me to take a team from our battalion to the All Army (U.S. Army Small Arms Championship) at Ft. Benning, in March, but I got promoted out of the unit in December.

    I currently have a set of orders to shoot in the Interservice Pistol Championships at Ft. Benning, in June, and the CMP National Pistol Matches at Camp Perry in July. I expect to get another set for the NRA National Pistol Matches at Camp Atterbury, if NRA can get their ranges together by then.

    Snoopy47, if you have any questions about how to get involved, just ask. I am connected with most people involved in USAR competitive shooting.
     
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  9. Snoopy47

    Snoopy47

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    But they didn't pay the entry fees, nor the travel and food expenses.

    Now, if a few more of them would get off their bums and join me for a GUARDIAN team we would totally sandbag it and I would have a trophy plaque for the unit trophy case.
     
  10. Snoopy47

    Snoopy47

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    I have plenty of questions. I did previously reach out to the USARMU , but at that time I was a Company Commander of an RFX unit, and it simply wasn't going to work out with the realities of time.

    Now, I guess a BIG question I have is if you got retirement points just for practicing or local small matches what Regulation and point codes would be used on the DA1380..

    I would LOVE!!!!!! to get the Distinguished Shooter Badge, and have been trying to do it the HARD WAY with NRA/CMP style Bulls Eye matches against CIVILIANS.

    I would TOTALLY be Distinguished by now if I could get to a Leg Point issuing military match against all the leg point fodder, let alone a combat course of fire (and not Bulls Eye one handed 50 yards).

    I looked into trying to make my annual Weapons Qualification Drill also a regulation match to issue LEG points, but then the hoops I had to jump through against my RFX required hoops weren't going to make that realistic.

    NOW!!!!!!!!!!!! that all said, as a staff officer with nothing better to do, and being "THAT GUY" in regard to weapons qual, I would like to position myself to actually get our unit's weapon qual event a LEG point match event.

    So in that area I have A LOT of questions for you.
     
  11. Bren

    Bren NRA Life Member

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    I have never turned one in for points, but the Army issues me both guns and ammo to practice with, so I imagine it would be "Training of individual Soldiers in nonpay status." AR 140-185, 2-2(g).

    Yes, that is the hard way. If you shoot the military combat style matches it's pretty easy. I know guys who have distinguished badges who have never earned a point in civilian Bullseye/CMP matches. A unit level match like the battalion ones only give you 4 points, but a match like All Army or All Army Reserve give you up to 10 and they are Level 3 matches. You have to have a Level 3 leg to get distinguished, no matter how many points you get.

    Of course, you can also earn the President's Hundred tab for an hour's work, if you can shoot a decent score bullseye style with a CMP service pistol. Theoretically, it's the easiest of the 4 tabs, but still much more rare than even Special Forces. That's what I would like to have, but I have missed it by 9 points and 11 points (400-point match) on my two attempts.
     
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  12. PM720

    PM720

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  13. Firecop203

    Firecop203

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    I was in the Air National Guard in the eighties and a member of the base Rifle Team. We shot NRA High Power every month at the local gun club. We didn’t get pay or points for those matches, but the Guard provided the rifles, ammo and paid the match fees.

    We did get pay and military transportation to any regional matches we wanted to attend. The highlight of my time on the team was when the team was put on orders to shoot the regional matches in Hawaii. Our base commander said that he had some pilots who needed some “over the water” time and authorized a C-130 and crew to take us there and back. We were issued orders for meals, transportation and quarters.

    We came, we shot, we won and came back victorious.
     
  14. 303_enfield

    303_enfield

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    Well, if I can't use my issue M9 it won't fly.

    So, how are you going to make up the required training your missing? This 31B50 would like to know.
     
  15. cityborncountrylivin

    cityborncountrylivin

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    I’ve been out more than 20 years, but I got paid by my NYARNG unit for going to matches.
    Besides shooting in the match, guys with civilian pistol permits and police officers (mostly NYPD) got paid for transporting the weapons to and from the match.
     
  16. Bren

    Bren NRA Life Member

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    I can't imagine it would fly in the Reserve, having civilians transporting military weapons and ammo. We just get orders that say, "AUTH TO POSSESS GOVT & PRIVATELY OWNED WEAPONS AND AMMO IAW AR 190-11." Of course, I have never known of us shooting a match in a very gun-controlled state like NY. Always Georgia, Ohio, Indiana, Tennessee, Florida, Maine, Texas, etc.
     
  17. Bren

    Bren NRA Life Member

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    You can use your issued M9 and you are required to in some matches, like the All Army and All Army Reserve combat-style matches. In "Service Pistol" matches, ironically, an issued M9 probably isn't going to be competitive, no matter how good you are. The USAMU's "Service Pistol" M9s have custom barrels, steel inserts in the slides rails, custom triggers, adjustable sights, etc.

    I don't know what you mean about missing required training.
     
  18. PM720

    PM720

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    But you would not be able to use the M9 in GSSF competition. :)
     
  19. Bren

    Bren NRA Life Member

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    I've never heard of a military team in a GSSF competition.
     
  20. naughtymoose

    naughtymoose

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    IMG_1143.jpeg
    I was there!
    Just an incredible match.
     
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