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Bah, .45 is the way! 9mm, hmm, maybe if yer gay.
:highfive:
:highfive:
Army’s Hollow Point Ammo Switch Will (Or Should) End the Caliber Debate
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Combat Medic: Army’s Hollow Point Ammo Switch Will (Or Should) End the Caliber Debate
By Jon Wayne Taylor on July 9, 2015
It appears that the US Army has finally decided to start using hollow point ammunition for the general issues service pistol. When RF called me and told me that, I was highly doubtful. But by all accounts, (and you heard it on TTAG first folks) this is the real deal.
The standard 9X19NATO round nosed FMJ is now, and has always been, a grossly inadequate handgun round for combat.
With the expansion capabilities of modern bullets, the 9mm round can now equal wound characteristics similar to the .45ACP, but still carry more rounds with less recoil.
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/20...switch-will-or-should-end-the-caliber-debate/
By Jon Wayne Taylor on July 9, 2015
It appears that the US Army has finally decided to start using hollow point ammunition for the general issues service pistol. When RF called me and told me that, I was highly doubtful. But by all accounts, (and you heard it on TTAG first folks) this is the real deal.
The standard 9X19NATO round nosed FMJ is now, and has always been, a grossly inadequate handgun round for combat.
With the expansion capabilities of modern bullets, the 9mm round can now equal wound characteristics similar to the .45ACP, but still carry more rounds with less recoil.
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/20...switch-will-or-should-end-the-caliber-debate/
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Jambog:
http://www.glocktalk.com/threads/u-s-army-is-switching-from-ball-to-hollow-point-ammunition.1587547/
and STILL no source from the US Army, just back to TTAG.:yawn:
I think the US Army is more than capable of managing it's own actual press releases in a professional manner.
http://www.glocktalk.com/threads/u-s-army-is-switching-from-ball-to-hollow-point-ammunition.1587547/
and STILL no source from the US Army, just back to TTAG.:yawn:
I think the US Army is more than capable of managing it's own actual press releases in a professional manner.
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21,063 Posts
Who would think that in today's PC attitudes that the US Army would dare to use HP ammo?!
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21,063 Posts
You're thinking of the Hague Convention (1899).
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40,383 Posts
Which wouldn't apply to fighting non state terrorists. Pretty sure Isis never signed The Hague.:whistling:
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11,867 Posts
Neither did the U.S.
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My bet is that's a lock. SJ 40
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So any clue as to what the new caliber is going to be?
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You mean the same outfit that ended the Rifle/Caliber debate when they ditched the M14/ 7.62mm...
...for the charming li'l M16/.5.56mm...?
Fascinating...
Nutter
...for the charming li'l M16/.5.56mm...?
Fascinating...
Nutter
I have posted this opinion on another forum... But, allow me to repeat.
There is no high technology involved in the production and loading of hollow point ammunition.
If the U.S. adopts the wide spread use of H.P. ammo, it is only natural that our enemies will do likewise.
It is not that ISIS will adopt the ammo that concerns me...
It is the future, where we could possibly come into conflict with nations such as Iran or North Korea.
Once we find it reasonable to break a long held rule of conduct, why would our enemies hesitate.
Those same more effective and devastating wounds will also be coming home on our soldiers.
This could very well become a "slippery slope".
There is no high technology involved in the production and loading of hollow point ammunition.
If the U.S. adopts the wide spread use of H.P. ammo, it is only natural that our enemies will do likewise.
It is not that ISIS will adopt the ammo that concerns me...
It is the future, where we could possibly come into conflict with nations such as Iran or North Korea.
Once we find it reasonable to break a long held rule of conduct, why would our enemies hesitate.
Those same more effective and devastating wounds will also be coming home on our soldiers.
This could very well become a "slippery slope".
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We have been using hp ammo in the Middle East. The sniper units have been using smk for quite some time. The entire hp argument is stupid considering the use of ied, cluster bombs, flame throwers, nukes, hp seem pretty normal.
This is exactly correct.
J.H.P's have been in use only on a limited basis by Snipers.
I am concerned about the "wide spread" use by infantry units and such.
I am simply trying to say... Look at the possible future implications.
Consider an extreme example.
Early on in the Afghan war, the Taliban held up in caves.
Would anyone have advocated for the use of poison gas to eliminate the hide outs.
No.... Why...The ramifications were simply too great.
Simply sit back, give it some thought, and consider when the U.S. soldier becomes the recipient of exactly this type of projectile.
Lethality on our enemies is not really at question, we certainly are capable of killing them, so why open a can of worms.
If lethality (particularly handguns) is an issue...
A less controversial answer already exists.
Pull the 9mm, and reissue .45's.
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They could certainly redesign the FMJ to make it more effective. A flat, slightly cupped meplat does a much better job on flesh than a rn.
As to what our enemies use against us, they are already committing havoc using IED, not exactly cricket. They will also not be opposed to using poison or dirty bombs if they feel it serves their purpose. Perspective is one thing but fighting a war with only one side abiding by rules of decency is little too PC for me. Win, that's all. The rest will sort itself out.
As to what our enemies use against us, they are already committing havoc using IED, not exactly cricket. They will also not be opposed to using poison or dirty bombs if they feel it serves their purpose. Perspective is one thing but fighting a war with only one side abiding by rules of decency is little too PC for me. Win, that's all. The rest will sort itself out.
The US is not, nor has ever been, a signatory to the Hague Convention. JHP is "legal," and a better fit, when trying to equate a pistol to a carbine, shotgun, or rifle. Different tools, for different tasks... There are times when a pistol is superior to other firearms, and *shudder*, a properly used and applied blade, to a firearm...
Our Spec Ops personnel have used JHPs for years. Due to the "moral outrage" of ignorant civilians and bureaucrats, it's always better to ask forgiveness, than ask permission... Too, why bother confusing idiots with facts?
Don't kiss 'em- kill 'em.
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The amount of misinformation on the net is staggering.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_parties_to_the_Hague_Conventions_of_1899_and_1907
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_parties_to_the_Hague_Conventions_of_1899_and_1907
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Not sure how the army going to hollow points will end any caliber debates, civilians have had hollow points for a long time but continue to "debate" and we still don't know which caliber the army will adopt. The debate will not stop as long as there are fan boys with nothing else to do!
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You have described the Lehigh Extreme Penetrator round, it makes the fmj round totally obsolete for SD purposes and IMHO would be better for the military than a hollow point because of its superior penetrating ability! The larger size of the .40 with the superiority of this bullet would make it an excellent military round!
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