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Armscor question: MIM???

Discussion in 'Band of Glockers' started by horge, Feb 5, 2006.

  1. horge

    horge -=-=-=-=- Lifetime Member

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    Ivan of Armscor in Nevada posted that Armscors they sell
    (the newer ones) have MIM internals.

    Does somebody here know if this is accurate?
    If it is, I effin' give up.
    External extractors, and now MIM.

    If it's true, and if SAM ever gets it heat-treatment
    (hardening) process right, it'll own the local market.
    Ditto any other local manufacturer who can, on CNC-milled
    4140 parts, because Armscor just went to doggytown.

    :soap:
     
  2. Eye Cutter

    Eye Cutter

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    pardon my ignorance but what's the difference between MIM, CNC, Forged, Casting for internal parts?
     

  3. isuzu

    isuzu

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    Went to the SAM factory during the World Shoot in Cebu and we bought slides and frames there. They already had CNC machines are were planning to expand their equipment.

    The old SAMs had soft slides and frames, but the later ones are a whole lot better. Even their barrels have improved. A friend of mine bought a stainless 38 Super slide and he still carries it. Also got a chance to see the blank barrels they were using which were made of imported materials.

    Another shooter used a SAM pistol (he just changed the internal parts to US-made parts), and have been shooting with it. It had about 5,000 rounds on it when it left and it shot well. He just changed his recoil and firing pin springs with Wolff Springs every 2,000 rounds. He was using 18.5 lbs conventional recoil spring with the XP firing pin that went with the pack.

    Honestly, I first thought that SAM pistols won't last but they do. One thing that I would like improved is strengthening the locking lugs. I've seen SAMs with stripped locking lugs. I first thought of it as an improperly fitted barrel, but more than three pistols with stripped locking lugs is something worth considering.

    Rhone de Leon is a very accomodating gentleman. I did business with him and he sees to it that your orders get fulfilled at the soonest possible time (I think he knows that shooters can hardly sleep when waiting for their orders;f ).
     
  4. isuzu

    isuzu

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    Horge,

    Correct me if I'm wrong. Is M.I.M. also Machine Injection Molding? I've read about it sometime last year, and it's claimed to "be as tough" as heat-treated metals, but more lower in cost. Before I left the Philippines, I already saw Armscor sears and hammers that had a "line" in between. Just like what you see on plastic products. Parang pinagkabit ang gitna.

    Could they have started using this process for quite a while already?
     
  5. mtho

    mtho

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    I think mim is metal injection molding here'something about it http://www.bultransmark.com/index2.htm

    some say that its about 95% as strong as forged steel.

    correct me if I'm wrong but the current armscor hammer looks like the ones used by kimber, chip mccormick and bulm5 which are all mim. maybe they buy it from them.

    there's a lot of dicussion of this topic at pistolsmith.com
     
  6. Pr1nc3_Prince

    Pr1nc3_Prince

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    maybe armscor should have thier own forums so that we could ask them such questions... hmmm...
     
  7. mc_oliver

    mc_oliver

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    IIRC, I was surprised about the info Ivan made about their shift to external extractors some months ago. However, recently, I think it was in the 1911forum where he said they were going back to inernal ones (I think that was what he said anyway.)

    As for MIM, I think I'm luck with my extractor. Buhay pa rin kasi and still in use. Although, in the local IPSC circuit, you can see quite a few shooters running armscor hammers.;)
     
  8. Kiddo

    Kiddo

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    Is there anything wrong with armscor hammers?
     
  9. Taurus

    Taurus

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    The range officer at Armscor-Makati CS told me that the Armscor Medallion series of pistols uses Chip McCormick parts. I have no way of verifying this, though.
     
  10. horge

    horge -=-=-=-=- Lifetime Member

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    Hi...


    Forging is when you take red-hot metal and beat/press/roll
    or otherwise beat the crap out of it to get the desired rough shape.
    That's how bars, rods, plate and billets are made. Working the metal
    ensures an absolute minimum of void spaces; good density of the metal;
    alignment of metal crystals; etc. The finished shape is necessarily
    simple, and complex parts are obtained by milling out a lot of
    unwanted metal, which takes up time (and wears out mill bits).
    Heat treatment can increase the hardness of the part.

    ***CNC (computer numerically controlled) milling is simply
    computer-plotted milling. More precision***

    Investment Casting is basically lost-wax casting.
    You make a wax model of the part, pour a concrete slurry over it,
    which hardens and becomes a mold, You then pour molten metal in, and
    the wax burns out. After controlled cooling, the mold is broken and
    the slightly-rough casting taken out. Obviously, you can get more
    complex shapes, limited only by how finely you make the wax model.
    CNC milling is still resorted to for obtaining precise dimensions
    and finish. Heat treatment can increase the hardness of the part.

    MIM is casting without the mold, so to speak.
    You take metal powder, add some binder (glue, if you will), and then
    put it into a latex mold. Once the glue dries, you pop the part out
    and make another cold "casting". When you have a bazillion of those,
    you put them on tray and then run them though a sintering furnace.
    The metal never really melts ---you just get the powder hot enough
    that the surface of each tiny grain starts to melt. Think of a
    weak tac-weld. Anyway the glue burns off, the part shrinks, and you
    get a sintered steel product. If the shrinkage has been accounted for
    carefully, there is no machining afterwards required.
    You have a reusable mold, and get to churn out bazillions of parts
    in one pass, so MIM is VERY cost-effective per piece, ROI aside.

    -*-*-*-*-

    Anyways....
    Forged steel done right is very, very strong.
    Casting done right is less so.
    Sintered steel parts (MIM) are much weaker, but if the part is made
    thicker to compensate, all's well: power tool parts re typically MIM
    these days.

    Problem is, the M1911 pistol was designed with forged steel in mind.
    Armscor is able to use casting because: a) Technology allows foundries
    to get metal densities approaching World-War I era forged steel;
    b) Heat treatment for hardening again produces a steel approaching
    World War I era forged; c) Armscor part dimensions are just a little
    bit thicker.

    But aking it down a notch further to MIM?
    For a number of internals, sure, not a lot of mechanical stress is
    involved, and even Colt's has resorted to MIM and even plastic for
    such less-stressed parts. The barrel link isn't one such. Neither are
    a lot of others, like the extractor, ejector, disconnector, etc.

    If one reduces steel density/integrity to the level produced by MIM
    without a compensating increase in part-thickness, there is
    increased risk of catastrophic failure. The required increase in
    thickness may not be possible while still retaining a mil-spec
    M1911's dimensions.

    Many/all Chip McCormick parts are indeed MIM.
    Many gunsmiths across the Pacific urinal seem to prefer
    Ed Brown hardcore or Wilson parts, which aren't MIM.
    I've had one McChippy link break on me (the Rangescor
    mixmaster built with Eye Cutter's cull parts) after
    only 200+ rounds, and no, the lugs were not slamming into
    it.


    h.
     
  11. Kiddo

    Kiddo

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    horge, do you know when Armscor started using MIM?
     
  12. horge

    horge -=-=-=-=- Lifetime Member

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    Kiddo :)
    Dude, I don't even know IF Armscor's started using MIM.
    All I have is Ivan's (of API Nevada) say-so, regarding their
    newer stock. Until I'd read that, I'd always assumed
    Amscor was an all-investment-cast proposition. Ivan has always
    been spot-on about things, but I had to try to verify it here.

    ----

    Isuzu :)
    A flashline can just as easily be an artefact of
    investment casting, if the wax core/model is itself assembled
    fom two solid wax halves prior to slurrying.
     
  13. mc_oliver

    mc_oliver

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    'Di balanse yung hooks. Mas matagal itono. And if you mate it with a hard sear 'di tumatagal yung engagement surface.
     
  14. Kiddo

    Kiddo

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    Oh okay. Thanks for the info, horge and mc_o! :)
     
  15. isuzu

    isuzu

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    Thanks, Horge and Mytho.