Armscor, Charles Daly & Rock Island Armory

Discussion in 'Band of Glockers' started by Kiddo, Jun 21, 2005.

  1. Kiddo

    Kiddo

    Messages:
    560
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2003
    Hey guys! I have been reading some threads on 1911 forums lately and found out that Armscor, CD and RIA are being used interchangeably. I would just like to confirm if they are made by the same manufacturer or are they different? :)
     
  2. vega

    vega

    Messages:
    2,799
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2001
    Location:
    SoCal
    Tell me you're kidding! My Charles Daly cannot have any Phil made parts!;)

    Yes, they are made by the same company, Arms Corporation of the Philippines.

    Edited to add - I have no CD.
     

  3. Kiddo

    Kiddo

    Messages:
    560
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2003
    Okay thanks for clearing that up vega. Anyone know why they had three brand names made by one manufacturer?
     
  4. royal glockster

    royal glockster

    Messages:
    588
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2005
    Location:
    Pilipinas kong mahal
    Charles Daly is an arms importer in America. They import guns from different countries and have then stamped "Charles Daly" upon arriving in the U.S. and armscor is one of them in their 1911 line of guns. RIA is an old arms manufacturer in America, however,due to cost reduction measure,they used to import parts from IMBEL of Brazil and Armscor of the Philippines to produce 1911 pistols. Remember, RIA is an old respected name in arms trademark in the U.S. which probably explains why it is slightly higher in price as compared to Charles Daly. Today, however, RIA is 100% armscor made since IMBEL raised its prices. Armscor of Parang Marikina owned by the Tuason family decided to introduce its 1911 pistols in the US bearing the name "ARMSCOR" late in 2003 during the Texas Shotshow, showing that indeed Philippine made pistols can be world class, so to speak!

    SAM (shooters arms manufacturer) of mandaue city, cebu and owned by the De Leon Family is exclusively distributed by Century Arms International located at Florida, USA. These are the two Phillipine arms manufacturer who were able to penetrate into the US market. Floro enterprises of TAnay, Rizal was not able to made it.
     
  5. Kiddo

    Kiddo

    Messages:
    560
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2003
    Thank you too royal glockster for the detailed history on how these brand names came to be! :cool:
     
  6. Mang Danny

    Mang Danny

    Messages:
    470
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2005
    Are you refering to "Rock Island Armory" or "Rock Island Arsenal"?
     
  7. Dok

    Dok Rimfire Fan

    Messages:
    242
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2003
    Location:
    Durian City, Philippines
    di ba Rock Island Armory is under Twin Pines?
     
  8. royal glockster

    royal glockster

    Messages:
    588
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2005
    Location:
    Pilipinas kong mahal
    Yes, Twin Pines is the distributor of RIA 1911s, an american pistol made by armscor of the philippines. Its markings, however, already bear "made in usa". ;)
     
  9. vega

    vega

    Messages:
    2,799
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2001
    Location:
    SoCal
    Not that I don't want to believe you but that's against trade law. Have you seen one yet?

    vega
     
  10. 9MX

    9MX Rei!

    Messages:
    5,952
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2003
    Location:
    Shooting
    so there is such a law in the US. it makes sense, US FA owners would certainly raise a howl if they see "made in the usa" on something that most shooting enthusiasts are aware is made in the philippines .i wonder if we have a similar one here.
     
  11. bagito

    bagito tanod

    Messages:
    254
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2004
    Location:
    london
    i own a commander RIA, the markings on the receiver reads
    "TWINPINES, PHILS"
     
  12. paltik45

    paltik45

    Messages:
    493
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2003
    Location:
    Laguna, Philippines
    Floro enterprises of TAnay, Rizal was not able to made it. [/B][/QUOTE]


    Just an FYI, I think FLORO managed to sell several 1911's here in the USA during the 80's. I've seen several during the last collectors gunshows here in Kansas city. The seller confirmed to me that it was imported from the Philippines and got the roolmark of FEDERAL ARMS.
     
  13. horge

    horge -=-=-=-=- Lifetime Member

    Messages:
    3,068
    Likes Received:
    23
    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2004
    Location:
    almost home

    Some of the above seems not quite completely accurate.
    I'm sure some of the information I have is inaccurate as well,
    but here goes:

    Yes, Charles Daly (now controlled by KBI) imports knocked-down gun kits from the likes of Armscor and FEG, and assembles them in the USA featuring the Charles Daly rollmark. Nothing unusual there: the present-day Springfield Armory imports XD kits from IM Metal/HS Produkt of Croatia, por ejemplo. In essence, Charles Daly subcontracts its 1911 pistol manufacture out to Armscor (controlled by the Tuason family).

    Rock Island Armory is a wholly-new brand owned from the start by Twin Pines Inc. (controlled by the Topacio family) of the Philippines and has no real US roots ---the name RIA is merely lifted off of the historic Rock Island Arsenal on Rock Island (where else) in the Mississippi, hard by its Iowa shore (not to be confused with Rock Island city/county of Illinois). Rock Island ARSENAL is a still-active (and massive) US government arsenal. While we're on the subject of name-grabbing ---today's Springfeld Armory (of Geneseo, Illinois) has NOTHING to do with the historic Springfield Armory in Massachusetts ---Bob Reese merely bought the name rights a few years after the famous government facility closed down... this all actually ties neatly into the brief Philippine (Elisco) 'ownership' of Armalite, Inc., but I digress...

    Now, back to Rock Island ARMORY. It's a brand owned by the Topacios' company Twin Pines. It just so happens that Twin Pines subcontracts its pistols' manufacture out to Armscor. I think either ante or New_comer posted years ago that Twin Pines tried going with Imbel (Industria de Material Belico do Brasil) for manufacture, but that owing to issues with fitting, soon switched to Armscor.

    It isn't just US and Philippine brands that turn to Armscor:
    Tanfoglio has tried selling 1911 pistols in Europe --and last I checked, these pistols were also being made by Armscor in Marikina, knocked down into kits, and shipped off to Turkey for reassembly and branding.

    Initially, Twin Pines (RIA) used Armscor only as a manufacturing subcintractor, and coursed its exports to the US through dealers like SARCO. This was unsatisfactory in terms of regulating the retail price vs. landed price, and so Twin Pines decided to give Armscor the marketing contract for its RIA pistols (Armscor has long had a US presence in Pahrump and Las Vegas, Nevada.

    Now, Armscor itself certainly markets its own Armscor-branded 1911 pistols, both in the Philippines and abroad --especially here in the US, and has been doing so since LONG before 2003. To avoid the conflict of marketing a competitor's product, the Armscor GI has apparently been deleted from Armscor's US marketing, and its nigh-identical twin the RIA has replaced it in Armscor's US lineup.

    Shooters Arms Manufacturing (formerly E. de Leon Gun Store) is not related to Armscor of Marikina and Nevada, and operates out of Cebu (Mandaue). SAM pistols are imported to the US by Century International Arms (CIA) of Florida (formerly of Vermont).

    Floro International indeed owns and makes the Federal line of 1911's, and has for some time now. I cannot fathom the pistols' long, general absence from Philippine and US gun store shelves.

    Bottom line(s):
    -Both Armscor and RIA are made, assembled and marketed by Armscor.
    -Charles Daly 1911's are made by Armscor but assembled and marketed by Charles Daly.
    -SAM are made by SAM and marketed by Century.
    -Federal are made by Floro Int'l.



    If the foregoing seems a little muddled, it is probably because
    I am not quite in the best frame of mind right now.



    horge
     
  14. 9MX

    9MX Rei!

    Messages:
    5,952
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2003
    Location:
    Shooting
    horge,

    wow! you can give ernie baron a run for his money anytime!^6
     
  15. mikol

    mikol

    Messages:
    1,424
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2004
    Location:
    currently in saudi arabia (jeddah)
    yep ditto on that! ;z ;W ;W ;W ;f
     
  16. Evan N. Payawal

    Evan N. Payawal

    Messages:
    153
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2004
    Location:
    Philippines
    How do Rock Island Armory 1911's shoot out of the box?
    Accurate? Reliable? Durable?
     
  17. kerwin

    kerwin

    Messages:
    150
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    May 5, 2004
    Location:
    CDOC, Philippines
    i was given the impression that the Topacio's did not intend to name their pistol after Rock Island Armory of Iowa but that of Corregidor
    also known as "Rock" Island.


    Kerwin
     
  18. horge

    horge -=-=-=-=- Lifetime Member

    Messages:
    3,068
    Likes Received:
    23
    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2004
    Location:
    almost home
    Ernie Baron?
    ;P

    kerwin,
    That's their blurb, yes, that RIA derives from Corregidor.
    Unfortunately, Corregidor was never widley known as 'Rock Island',
    but rather as 'the Rock' (just like Alcatraz).

    Evan,
    Rock Islands are Armscors: after a little break-in, they run great.
    It's standard to go through 25-100 FMJ to get reliable feeding, but
    I shortened my break-in period by smoothing the frame's ramp a wee bit,
    with superfine steel wool.

    My Armscor badboy feeds any FMJ or JHP. Even if I take out
    the recoil spring and just push the slide with a finger,
    it'll still feed off its mag easy as butter on olive oil...



    h
     
  19. Kiddo

    Kiddo

    Messages:
    560
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2003
    Went to our local Tools Trading shop here and they have the Armscor .40 double stack at 31k w/ license and RIA .45 SS at 19k w/ license. I went to another local shop and they sell the Armscor .45 SS at 28k. Is the price difference between RIA and Armscor really that big? Or sobra overpricing lang yung kabilang shop? ;Q
     
  20. horge

    horge -=-=-=-=- Lifetime Member

    Messages:
    3,068
    Likes Received:
    23
    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2004
    Location:
    almost home
    Kiddo,
    Those aren't directly-comparable singlestack models that you mentioned,
    in all likelihood.

    The "RIA" is equivalent to the "Armscor GI", the former generally fetching 17+K (whereas the Armscor GI retails for only around 14K+).
    Again, both are bare-bones mil-speccish models.

    Armscor also sells a 'Practical' model, with beavertail, Novak-style sights,
    et cetera, and it normally retails for a little over 22K.
    This is probably the single-stack Armscor you were talking about.

    A less and less common complaint with Armscors is tight magwells.
    They'll take the factory mags all right, but not much else.
    Best to get a unit with a high serial number (with letters prefix)
    to dodge this issue.

    h