[Railsplitter]

Agree, but bullets like that exist & fragmentation is fine as long as it do3esnt compromise penetration. Same goes for core separation, its an add'l wound if the core goes one way& the jacket another but you still want to reach vitals. Otherwise just punching holes & there is a lot of space on a 300# man that isnt vitals.

Yes that's why I prefer ammo that offers both good penetration and a good amount of tissue destruction.

 

[Alex Smith]

(1) Yes, it was.

(2) I'm not sure what "his experience" is that adds alot of credibility. Sure, I'd say he is more credible than the "average person" - but that isn't setting the bar very high. I know (that it is said) that he has military experience so that's a plus. I personally know a FBI HRT/Sniper that I like alot, great guy. He was the team leader on the Jimmy * [1]/Alabama hostage incident. But he can't tell you JS about terminal ballistics, bullet BC's/SD's, Miller stability, etc. - and he isn't hesitant to tell "you" so.

ETA[1] - The nanny filter is blocking the name of the guy who took Ethan Gilman hostage, it is d*y*k*e*s

1) what was questionable about it?

2) he was in the military and has been in (and won) many shooting competitions as a private citizen.

 

[Alex Smith]

Yes, as I said before, the community was/is private - but it was not the McCloskey's property. In most states, there is a difference in someone trespassing on "your" property (as a defender) and someone trespassing on someone else's property (as in this case).

And no, the protestors did not "break/broke" through the gate. This is very common misinformation. The gate, although posted, was open. (This is on publicly available video). It was later broken down. It is unclear who actually broke the gate (well after the protestors entered).

And no, being charged and convicted - then pardoned is different than "letting them off" (which isn't even a legal term/status).

Of course it’s not a legal term. They were charged and convicted and then pardoned because the charges were absurd.

 

[sourdough44]

Gotta get me some black talon.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Talon

 

[pAZ Ron]

(1) The AG, as I recall: (1) "didn't let them off", (2) they were found (plead) guilty of several charges, and (3) later pardoned by the Governor.

(2) The "trespassers" were not on the property of the McCloskey's, they were on common areas of the private community.

(3) It would be a hard case to make that they were in reasonable fear/belief of death or serious bodily harm when they were (1) not taking cover and (2) advancing on the unarmed people in the common area of the community while brandishing a firearm.

I warched the video. Did not see them leave their property ... so the "advancing on people in the common area" was when/where? A "common area" in a gated HOA community does not mean it is public property or access. It is community property owned by the community of which the couple were owners.

Also, what was the overall context? What did protesters do in days preceding this incident? What did these protesters do immediately prior to crashing the private property gate or afterward? Was there burning, looting or other property damage when the protest was on the public street that would lead someone to conclude "you are next" as they crashed the gate? (If it was a "peacefuI protest", I stand corrected.) I heard reported there were firearms anong the protestors ... not sure if true. So in the context, was there reason to be fearful?

The couple's actions made a statement. They executed it stupidly as many posters have pointed out the gross mistakes and I agree. They paid the consequences of their actions with legal charges.

But their place was not torched or vandalized with them in it. Who knows what the result would have been in the absence of action, given the unlawful actions already taken by the crowd.

 

[fredj338]

I warched the video. Did not see them leave their property ... so the "advancing on people in the common area" was when/where? A "common area" in a gated HOA community does not mean it is public property or access. It is community property owned by the community of which the couple were owners.

Also, what was the overall context? What did protesters do in days preceding this incident? What did these protesters do immediately prior to crashing the private property gate or afterward? Was there burning, looting or other property damage when the protest was on the public street that would lead someone to conclude "you are next" as they crashed the gate? (If it was a "peacefuI protest", I stand corrected.) I heard reported there were firearms anong the protestors ... not sure if true. So in the context, was there reason to be fearful?

The couple's actions made a statement. They executed it stupidly as many posters have pointed out the gross mistakes and I agree. They paid the consequences of their actions with legal charges.

But their place was not torched or vandalized with them in it. Who knows what the result would have been in the absence of action, given the unlawful actions already taken by the crowd.

Yeah but you dont get to point guns at people unless there is imminent threat. Fear of is not the same as. Far too many people think pointing a gun is solving the problem but its an escalation in force. Its why they got prosecuted. Walk outside with guns at low ready on your own property, no issue. Point guns at people & threaten to shoot, no imminent threat, yeah a problem.
It was a potential problem that could have involved deadly force but it really never developed. The other part of the story was the mob wasn't arrested & charged. There was property damage, should have been prosecutions, but thats how the left rolls.

 

[pAZ Ron]

Yeah but you dont get to point guns at people unless there is imminent threat. Fear of is not the same as. Far too many people think pointing a gun is solving the problem but its an escalation in force. Its why they got prosecuted. Walk outside with guns at low ready on your own property, no issue.

Yeah, agreed. Their tactics & execution sucked. If only they'd walked out with the pistol holstered and the AR slung/at low ready. Maybe even taken a seat & just watched.

I was adressing what might have happened if no action had been taken.

 

[fredj338]

Yeah, agreed. Their tactics & execution sucked. If only they'd walked out with the pistol holstered and the AR slung/at low ready. Maybe even taken a seat & just watched.

I was adressing what might have happened if no action had been taken.

I would have pulled up a chair & just sat & watched. No threats, no flashing of firearms. Call 911 & just wait. Since no firearms were seen in the crowd, what is the fear factor If you are covertly armed, trained & skilled. Their issue was fear. Zero training of either of them, easy to see that. So fear takes over, you start pointing guns, crowd has guns, gunfight starts. They were lucky.

 

[PEC-Memphis]

Yeah but you dont get to point guns at people unless there is imminent threat. Fear of is not the same as. Far too many people think pointing a gun is solving the problem but its an escalation in force. Its why they got prosecuted. Walk outside with guns at low ready on your own property, no issue. Point guns at people & threaten to shoot, no imminent threat, yeah a problem.
It was a potential problem that could have involved deadly force but it really never developed. The other part of the story was the mob wasn't arrested & charged. There was property damage, should have been prosecutions, but thats how the left rolls.

The only property damage I recall was the gate.

It is not clear who damaged the gate. The “protesters” entered an open/undamaged gate; as shown on publicly available video.

The protesters were trespassing on HOA property, so they should have been removed from the property (by LE) and issued a notice of trespass.

I completely agree with your evaluation in the use of (deadly) force in this incident.

 

[nikerret]

As for cost, how much carry ammo do you all shoot? One or two boxes can last for for a decade even when shooting a few for function test and firing the top carry round each year to reduce setback risk.

For a j-frame, maybe.

My latest primary carry holds 11 rounds with the smallest mag and I have a 13 round mag also loaded up to use when I don’t need to have it as concealed. I shot all but these 25 round (11+13+1) out of the two 50 round boxes of HST’s to verify function and optic zero.

I intend to shoot these 25, next time I’m out shooting, to again verify everything is smooth. Then, I’ll use more FMJ, for training.

I don’t like to have carry ammo in for more than a year, or so. If I just keep an 11 and 13 round mags loaded, plus the 1 in the chamber, that’s 25 rounds, per year, to freshen up my carry ammo. Plus, I will have to change the battery, in the optic…I’ll need to shoot my carry ammo to verify zero or make adjustments.

The HST’s are around $28, per box of 50. That’s around $15, per year….


No way a box or two of defensive ammo is enough to properly vet a firearm and freshen up carry ammo annually, in a semi-auto.

 

[pAZ Ron]

As for cost, how much carry ammo do you all shoot? One or two boxes can last for for a decade even when shooting a few for function test and firing the top carry round each year to reduce setback risk.

The "box or two" you described is what I have left of my dribs & drabs of ammo I've tried and vetted. I find it enough to slowly use up in an HD gun, that stays clean, shooting off the chamber round when it has been unloaded a time or two. Or, also ok for something I find optimum but for a less carried gun like a micro for summer carry or a carry load for hiking or hunting b/u.

But for my main EDC options, no way. I have 400+ to 700+ SD rds., depending on caliber, for my 2 carry guns, after testing to select and firing multi loads through each carry mag to vet. I may even have a stash of my next carry ammo for when these are gone. 🙂 Even my pocket carry gun, I have 300+ rds.

A little overboard? Yes, but allows me to shoot a couple full mags a year to stay confident using my carry ammo & cycling through the dirty carry mags. No worries then about pricing or availability as I have plenty. It is better to be on the 10 year time horizon plan.🙂

And my carry mags do get dirty from particles of antiperspirant to dust & lint. They are pretty gunky by a year or less of carry. I get sick of seeing it, shoot them (they always go bang & cycle fine though), & clean mags & carrier.

 

[fredj338]

For a j-frame, maybe.

My latest primary carry holds 11 rounds with the smallest mag and I have a 13 round mag also loaded up to use when I don’t need to have it as concealed. I shot all but these 25 round (11+13+1) out of the two 50 round boxes of HST’s to verify function and optic zero.

I intend to shoot these 25, next time I’m out shooting, to again verify everything is smooth. Then, I’ll use more FMJ, for training.

I don’t like to have carry ammo in for more than a year, or so. If I just keep an 11 and 13 round mags loaded, plus the 1 in the chamber, that’s 25 rounds, per year, to freshen up my carry ammo. Plus, I will have to change the battery, in the optic…I’ll need to shoot my carry ammo to verify zero or make adjustments.

The HST’s are around $28, per box of 50. That’s around $15, per year….


No way a box or two of defensive ammo is enough to properly vet a firearm and freshen up carry ammo annually, in a semi-auto.

I agree but for vetting your carry ammo. If your pistol is 100% with ball ammo, then a full mag each of your carry ammo will show any issues. The idea i have to shoot 200 or 300 rds of carry ammo to verify reliability is silly. Your next failure could be 201 pr 301? I get it though, confidence in your gear is important.
I test strong & weak hand only, where most problems show up. I mag strong & weak, 1 mag running as fast as i can. I shoot my carry ammo off every 2 years at my ccw qual.

 

[Will1993]

It's called risk analysis followed by risk mitigation. Elimination of risk variables is what a good LE command group should be about as a primary consideration, and most do. It's not a bad thing for a civilian to do, but most don't have the knowledge or access to the data, so they look at guys like Harrel as a factor in making their choices...not a bad thing overall, but if you take him as the one and only data point, you might make a poor overall choice.

Exactly!

One of the frustrations I have with peers in the gun community is their love affair with youtube.

 

[Matteo1371]

Exactly!

One of the frustrations I have with peers in the gun community is their love affair with youtube.

But but if he has lots o subs he just hasta know what he’s talking about.

 

[Alex Smith]

But but if he has lots o subs he just hasta know what he’s talking about.

No one said that

 

[Matteo1371]

No one said that

While it was said jokingly that is a common mentality.

 

[unit1069]

I feel so under-protected now that I realize Golden Saber, Gold Dot, HST, and XTP are so "old school". And here I bought an adequate supply of each a long time ago. Money down the drain; only good for range fodder now.

 

[Bullwinkle J Moose]

Most violent crooks are not of the upper crust, so premium ammo is not really required. Maybe if I ever need to shoot someone wearing a tux, I'll wish I had fancy ammo.

 

[fastbolt]

Buy budget cost ammunition? Don't be surprised if you end up with budget 'performance' in arguably critical aspects.

Being able to sell budget defensive/duty ammo for budget pricing usually means using less expensive components, and perhaps less stringent QC measures involved in the production.

I remember when, as a young LE firearms instructor, I became interested in ammunition testing, attended hosted gel 'tests', etc. Listening to some of the folks working for some of the big ammo makers, it made perfect sense that their more costly 'premium' JHP ammo might cost more due to a number of factors, such as using nickel cases, more sensitive (reliable) primers, powders with flash suppressants, primer pocket sealant, case mouth sealant, increased QC steps during production, some additional changes to production specifications (higher bullet pull/push requirements, etc) ... and, of course, more modern JHP bullet designs created to better resist plugging and yet still exhibit robust expansion across various industry-wide organic gel testing protocols.

Throughout my LE career I ended up carrying the least expensive (but still major American maker) JHP loads, as well as the most costly 'premium' JHP loads. I carried what was available/issued, or what was optionally authorized (on my own dime) ... and put more attention on the part of the equation over which I did have some direct control, meaning my ability to train & practice with whatever ammo was presently loaded in my duty and off-duty weapons. I continue to do the same thing in my retirement, for my retirement CCW.

All the major American makers who do a lot of LE/Gov business have been producing their premium ammo to meet the more common and accepted industry-wide ammo testing protocols, so it's rather unsurprising that they may all satisfactorily meet those same standards.

For the folks who enjoy using more 'custom' or specialty ammo, there's always been some small custom ammo makers working to meet that niche part of the commercial market.

 

[frankr2]

I am far less an expert than many here. I am always seeking to learn and do not want to overstate my own credentials. I have carried Critical Duty for years because I was told by the store clerk it was good self defense ammo for my full size pistol. Further reading and it’s reputation by the FBI seems to support that it should be good for my self defense purposes. Have shot enough of it to know it cycles and hits point of aim. I keep an eye on the round that is chambered and rechambered and see no visible setback even after a long period of time and regularly converting the pistol to a dryfire safe condition or practice at the range. It seems the crimp is done in a way different than some other ammo and that helps reduce setback. I should use my calipers and see if any is detectable. I maybe shoot 3 rounds a year to check it out and keep an eye for any discoloration of the rounds in the carry mag. I have been using CCI Lawman for matches and cycle through my mags to make sure they are in good working order.