Are antis really that dumb?

Discussion in 'The Okie Corral' started by Harper, Jan 27, 2013.

  1. Harper

    Harper

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    This is a serious question and something that has been bothering me. I'm baffled by what antis often present as evidence. For instance Piers Morgan likes to throw out the comparison between the US murder rate and the UK's as evidence that guns laws reduce crime. When I hear stuff like that I instantly think about if you what to show the effect a policy has you have to show change over time, otherwise it tells you nothing. Maybe their murder rate got worse and ours got better as a result. Still you'd have to control for certain factors to attribute any causation. I think that should be blatantly obvious.

    Other examples are anecdotal evidence like how during the Giffords shooting they were able to take him out during a mag change. Similarly, the fact that the last few shooting were done by AR-15s is used as evidence that they lead to either more mass shootings or more people dead. Do people not realize that this is statistically meaningless?

    I find it disturbing because not only are these people pushing for a sweeping national prohibition on equipment they are ignorant about but often what they present as evidence for it should be absurd to anyone educated in calculus, statistics or just basic logic. I'm not making a pro-2A argument in this post. I'm not asking about their intentions. I'm seriously asking, are most antis oblivious to these concepts?
     
  2. RedRunnerGTS

    RedRunnerGTS

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    I believe most people are completely ignorant of firearms in general. They have no idea how they work, and get all their information from movies and TV.

    I have many talks with Anti's that truely believe that if you ban guns that it will make gun crimes instantly stop. I had an Anti repeatedly tell me "no guns=no gun crimes" but couldn't answer how do you make guns disappear. They live in a delusional land where everything is rainbows and unicorns.

    Nevermind the fact that UK's violent crime per capita is way above the US. They still have violent crime, but they do have lower "gun crimes". I feel like the don't equate gun crime with violent crime. If there are no guns crimes that is good but some how a big violent crime rate is ok?
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2013

  3. janice6

    janice6

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    Fear.

    They are displaying an irrational fear of an object. The deadly results of mis-using the object is simply supporting the fear of the object, not what good the object can do, that is not within their fear. Remember these same people think that if a gun were laying on a table, eventually it would spontaneously fire without human intervention.

    Their fear makes them continue to come up with more unsupported and unrealistic arguments against the object, as each is logically dismissed. Consider the claims that civilian assault rifles can "spray bullets, hundreds a minute", when machine guns are already illegal without government approval.

    Pretty soon it is: "That thing that goes up", or "ban high velocity clips", or sling attachments described as "a mounting for a grenade launcher", and on and on, as they lose all presumptions of reality in their arguments.

    Hard to logically discuss an irrational behavior.
     
  4. BenjiEDF

    BenjiEDF

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    No, they are not dumb. The people pushing this disarmament agenda are very intelligent and they are depending on the ignorance of the masses to permit it.
     
  5. Harper

    Harper

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    Well that's really my question. What if the issue wasn't guns but something they aren't emotionally affected by - are they knowledgeable and intelligent enough to understand these basic math, statistics and logic concepts? Are most Americans in general able to understand these concepts?
     
  6. Folsom_Prison

    Folsom_Prison Brew Crew

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    Sad but this is kinda how I've felt lately!
     
  7. countrygun

    countrygun

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    I have been saying, since I was in school, that the education system has been corrupted by the substitution of "feelings" for critical thinking skills. When kids are taught that, how they feel about themselves is more important than their actual abilities, they grow up to be adults that can be led by appealing to their feelings instead of logic and reason.

    We are just seeing that poisoned tree bearing fruit.
     
  8. BenjiEDF

    BenjiEDF

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    Trust your instinct because you are correct. The cycle of revolution is available for historical review it is the Tytler Cycle (unknown if original author, but truth none the less). Bondage
    Spiritual Faith
    Courage
    Liberty
    Abundance
    Selfishness
    Complacency
    Apathy
    Dependence
    Then starting over with Bondage

    This cycle is absolutely undeniable apart from the semantic meaning of certain words. Religion included, even a hardcore atheist would not be so foolish as to denounce its wisdom. For a proper supplement to the "spiritual faith" or "dependence" entails a worship of the state, of government, of the lord our savior Obama (joking of course).
     
  9. Folsom_Prison

    Folsom_Prison Brew Crew

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    How old are you? I'm 24, really wasn't like that IMO growing up here and when I was in school.
     
  10. M2 Carbine

    M2 Carbine

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    "Ignorant" is the word for the majority.
    The well meaning people mostly just don't know what the heck they are talking about. Usually you can change the minds of these people, if they have an open mind to truth, reality and facts.

    The rest, our enemies, have an agenda to disarm the American people for one reason or another. These people know what they as saying is bullcrap but they will say and do anything to further their agenda. These people, including many politicians are truly enemies of our rights and the Constitution.

    Then there are the disinterested. No matter the subject, if they aren't interested in it they want it to go away.
     
  11. BenjiEDF

    BenjiEDF

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    Not quite right, I feel the need to correct you Sir. You see "feelings" are individual and that is a sin according to the new technocracy, you are NOT an individual, you are a "another brick in the wall" as Pink Floyd so musically illustrated. The definition of critical thinking by my institution is this:

    "students develop their critical and creative thinking abilities by learning how to identify assumptions, and to work out how those assumptions inform results. They assess multiple perspectives, with an eye to understanding why and how they differ, and developing the capacity to engage in controversy productively. Students learn to identify central questions or concerns informing other work, and to develop their own work with clear animating questions. Students develop a range of skills in interpretation, analysis, argumentation, application, synthesis, and evaluation."

    Evaluate as you will. I am only the messenger.
     
  12. RonS

    RonS Millennium Member

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    They are lemmings. It doesn't matter how smart or dumb they are because they don't think.

    Look at the protesters at some of the gun shows, from local churches. They are so blind that they don't even notice that the people advocating gun control are the far left, who support every cause that the Christian church hates and fears. Their enemies are using them and they are so taken in that they don't even notice.
     
  13. Berto

    Berto woo woo

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    Every person I have ever debated this issue with relied on an emotional argument- the need to "do something" regardless of whether any effect could be demonstrated.
     
  14. stooxie

    stooxie NRA Life Member

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    Many excellent, excellent posts above. This one captures it for me. Most people don't consider that actual "facts" for an instant, not about guns, not about anything. As long as food is in their bellies and green stuff comes out of the ATM they really couldn't care less about anything else.

    -Stooxie
     
  15. Harper

    Harper

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    Interesting, I haven't seen that before. I've certainly been aware that the lack of necessity to fight for freedom makes people soft and apathetic.
     
  16. countrygun

    countrygun

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    I'm 53, I have seen the change, it was changing in my day and not for the better. I feared the day when my classmates became parents, much less grandparents.

    Do you really think that most people in this Country, with a HS diploma could pass, say, a 1950s civics exam?

    Has the Constitution changed that much they can't keep up with it?

    Aren't there still 3 branches of Government? (Probably not in another 4 years)

    OK, we added two States, was that intellectually insurmountable? (Not with the POTUS' imagination and math skills, he can name 57)

    Would you really liked to have taken a 1950's history exam to get you HS diploma?
     
  17. Harper

    Harper

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    You're right, there is a difference between possessing knowledge and using it.

    That's been my experience for the most part. I have talked to a few people who simply haven't investigated beyond their initial opinion. It seems a lot of people hear about something like a magazine capacity limit and think "well, that sounds like it would work" or "well, that makes sense" and never investigate beyond that. I imagine that's why the Brady campaign keeps using the phrase "common sense gun laws" so people don't think too much.
     
  18. tcruse

    tcruse

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    Different places different attitude. The only protesters at the gun shows around here are those against some of our anti-2a elected officials. The range that I go to has a church shooting group that meets weekly. One minister that I know has a very large stack of ammo in hose garage. People here in north Texas seem to just fine with guns and bibles.
     
  19. nikerret

    nikerret Mr. Awesome

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    This^

    Their argument almost always starts with, "I think" or "I feel". Most of mine start with an example of a real life incident follwed be an argument.

    For example, my father and I were arguing gun control one day. Part of what he argued was when he told me he thought AR's were the largest threat, to law enforcement.

    I explained that traffic stops are known as one of the highest danger areas. I am more worried about someone with a pistol than a rifle. He disagreed. I told him it was obvious he had never tried to wield a rifle, even a SBR, in the cab of a standard sized automobile. I have a ABR and drive a Tahoe. It's still not easy to wield it.

    He said, what if they jump out. I told him a rifle is a hell of a lot easier to see than a pistol, if someone jumps out. Unless, they get the drop on me, which would (most likely) be my fault, the rifle offers more warning than a pistol.

    He then brought up long range shots. I started laughing. I explained that long range shots are very difficult, for the average shooter, with iron sights, with an AR. A good, scoped hunting rifle, not so much. I am much more concerened about the average hunting rifle, which everyone around here has in their truck, than I am about an "assault weapon" taking me out from 200+ yards.

    He got mad and said something to the effect of, "I don't think that's right. That just doesn't make sense." OF course, I pointed out his vast experience with AR's; he's never shot one.

    I did concede that a well-trained person with a good AR setup would be very bad, for me, but that's the large minority of AR owners.

    We tranitioned to what criminals carry. He said they all carry AR's and pistols with high capacity clips. I asked him, once again, out of his vast experience, how many people he has arrested that were armed. Of course, he said, "none". I told him I had a few more under my belt. Personally, the guns I've taken off the streets are usually cheap pieces that I wouldn't feel confident taking into a firefight. They are usually poorly maintained and are not fully loaded. This also goes for a lot of the CCW pieces I see, in the field, but not to the same degree. He got mad, and said, "I don't think that's the case."

    I told him to stop running with his thoughts and feelings and let those with experience speak on the matter.

    Unfortunately, he works with a lot of "gun guys", some of whom are worse than the average internet board mall ninja. Some of the things they tell him are even more stupid than his guesses.
     
  20. Buki192327

    Buki192327

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    They don't want to let the facts and truth get in the way of their arguments.


    They don't want to let the lessons learned from cities like Chicago, which have had strong gun control measures, for years.