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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I'm planning on picking up another .308 some time soon, and was wondering, do 'yawl see much difference in accuracy between an AR10 platform and a bolt rifle in .308? I'm looking pretty hard at the M&P10, but am concerned about long-range accuracy with such a thin barrel. I have heard that our military folks sometimes take shots out to 700 yards with an M14, but we're talking about two different animals.

Any thoughts?
 

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Zippy's Friend.
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A gas gun can be almost as accurate, but it really is harder to shoot as well as a well-set-up bolt gun.

Our sniper section (7 shooters) have 5 700s and 2 OBRs. I used to have a gas gun also that I sold. If I really paid attention and held hard, I could shoot really nice little groups with it. But I couldn't shoot it as well as my 700. It was much heavier, and I got tired of running the qual course with 2 rifles.

Barrel thickness shouldn't make a difference - the barrel quality does. Hitting a human sized target at 700 is not hard at all with a .308 gas gun with good ammo as long as the barrel doesn't suck.

I'm not up to speed on the M&P, but the OBRs are good out to around 800 (where we run out of room to shoot). I'm sure they are good further. I'm not sure a $1500 smith is going to get you the same level of accuracy, though - but you could get lucky.
 

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My OBR was out shooting AI platforms down the line at some training last year. Well made .308 AR type platforms can hold their own. The key is good glass, and a good trigger. Without a doubt, additional rounds on target or rapid follow up shots are superior to the bolt gun.

Consider that in recent international sniper competitions, the Larue platform (as an example) was being fielded by several hard use military teams.

My OBR 16" could easily tag to 800 yards. For LE work, that's a long way. But the key is the follow-up shots. The well made AR shines here.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
A gas gun can be almost as accurate, but it really is harder to shoot as well as a well-set-up bolt gun.

Our sniper section (7 shooters) have 5 700s and 2 OBRs. I used to have a gas gun also that I sold. If I really paid attention and held hard, I could shoot really nice little groups with it. But I couldn't shoot it as well as my 700. It was much heavier, and I got tired of running the qual course with 2 rifles.

Barrel thickness shouldn't make a difference - the barrel quality does. Hitting a human sized target at 700 is not hard at all with a .308 gas gun with good ammo as long as the barrel doesn't suck.

I'm not up to speed on the M&P, but the OBRs are good out to around 800 (where we run out of room to shoot). I'm sure they are good further. I'm not sure a $1500 smith is going to get you the same level of accuracy, though - but you could get lucky.
Thanks very much. Officer price on the M&P10 at Bud's Police Supply is about $1070 shipped. I plan to wait just a bit and see how well they pan out before I make a decision.
 

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The key will be trigger, free floated barrel and the tolerances.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
My OBR was out shooting AI platforms down the line at some training last year. Well made .308 AR type platforms can hold their own. The key is good glass, and a good trigger. Without a doubt, additional rounds on target or rapid follow up shots are superior to the bolt gun.

Consider that in recent international sniper competitions, the Larue platform (as an example) was being fielded by several hard use military teams.

My OBR 16" could easily tag to 800 yards. For LE work, that's a long way. But the key is the follow-up shots. The well made AR shines here.
Kind of what I was thinking. Plus, with a good set of irons as a backup, a .308 AR platform could also be a life saver if things got a little close.

Thank you.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
According to what a search just revealed, it does not look as thought the barrel is free-floated. With that in mind, can anyone venture a guess as to the effective range?
 

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Yep. I used the OBR scope mount with my Loopy glass but had irons as well, just in case. I'd say go for an OBR but with the nuttiness as of late, you will be waiting for some time.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Yep. I used the OBR scope mount with my Loopy glass but had irons as well, just in case. I'd say go for an OBR but with the nuttiness as of late, you will be waiting for some time.

Alllllllllllllright, I give up. :crying:

What's an OBR?
 

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According to what a search just revealed, it does not look as thought the barrel is free-floated. With that in mind, can anyone venture a guess as to the effective range?
Standard handguard, front sight setup will degrade accuracy. You can't really say how well it will shoot until you fire the dang thing. My guess would be 1.5-4 MOA groups stock. To be blunt a bolt gun that is the same price as the semi auto will typically shoot better.
 

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There is a longer conversation about this on the M4Carbine forum.
 

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The Armalite AR10 will not not be as consistent with accuracy as a configured bolt action rifle. I have seen plenty of tries at the DoE school, at 29 Palms, at Gunsite, at LE shootoffs, and other places. There are single exceptions, but as a class of rifle, they don't get close enough.

One of the problems is mating the upper receiver to the lower receiver and fixing that mechanical interface consistently. Knights Armament builds them this way, but they charge for it. Expect to pay way more per Stoner pattern rifle [200 to 500% more] versus a bolt rifle for roughly equal accuracy.
 

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Keep in mind that if you are planning on putting animate targets down permanently, the .308/7.62x51 is pretty much done at 800 yards, because it is at the trans-sonic shift. If you want consistent energy, you need to go with a .300 Magnum or more.
 

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MOA about 1" group at 100M, 2" at 200M, etc..

M1A/M14 is sub 2 MOA weapon system, maybe 1 MOA is bedded and set up right. Semi-Auto makes it good to get a hit at 500-700 meters with a few rounds.

The AR10 is a 1.5 MOA to 3/4 MOA system. The M110 and SR25 can get close to 3/4 MOA for about a $7K price. Most Semi-Auto .308's will shoot about MOA with a match 20" barrel.

The bolt guns can be 1 MOA to 3/8 MOA, most being at 3/4 or less (high end can be about zero MOA). Basic Remigtons are $700-1000 for 1 to 3/4 MOA. Higher Remingtons, CZ's, FN's in the $1,200 to $2,000 range will be 1/2 MOA, and custom builds from about $2,400 up can do 3/8 to about zero MOA.

The M1A is nothing like the bolt guns, and its use is not really the same. Counter Sniper's need range and fast follow up shots and Semi-Auto .308's are great for that. The bolt action .308 is one shot being sent to the spot it is needed, with the hope a second shot is not needed.

The M1A is a neat gun, but over rated by some.

The M&P 10 is a good value, maybe the best value. But with its barrel will not be like a $3K up semi-auto .308.

IMHO the M&P 10 will be a great gun, as the AR .223/5.56 is a poor caliber for use on people, or cover.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Keep in mind that if you are planning on putting animate targets down permanently, the .308/7.62x51 is pretty much done at 800 yards, because it is at the trans-sonic shift. If you want consistent energy, you need to go with a .300 Magnum or more.
800 yards should be a gracious plenty. I just want to buy one for personal use while I still can, and I hope and pray I will never have to use it.
 

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I own a DPMS LR 308. I have a match trigger in it. It is a sub moa rifle. Have a Mark 4 scope on it and good rings. My Savage 10fp shoots a bit better then that.

Follow up shots much faster with the gas gun. I reload for both and they both like different ammo. You have to experiment.

The trigger, glass and a free floated quality barrel are the keys. They make shots repeatable which is what you want to do. The heavy barrel is an advantage when training. It takes much longer to heat up. As the barrel heats up you lose some accuracy. The lightweight barrels got hotter faster. You need the range time to get good with it. Additionally you need to log your shots so you know where they will go under various conditions. Log your cold bore shots seperately since they are the ones you will likely make in the field.
 

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Just curious what the intended use is?

Are you looking for counter sniper deployment, patrol work or for a general mix?

I'd rather a bolt action for the counter sniper (maybe an AR30A1), but obviously for patrol work the semi auto capability would be nice.
 
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