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AR Magazine change technique

Discussion in 'Black Rifle Forum' started by Rooster Rugburn, Dec 2, 2012.

  1. Rooster Rugburn

    Rooster Rugburn Got Pignose?

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    I heard about a training outfit who is teaching a different way to change a magazine in an AR.

    Supposedly (I say that because I wasn't in the class) one school is teaching a different way to replace a magazine: drop the empty mag, unlatch the bolt, insert the new mag, and then rack the slide and cycle the bolt.

    This is done because the trainer says you cannot trust the bolt to strip a round out of the magazine from the locked open position.

    Has anyone actually seen this specific technique being demonstrated? Has anyone seen an AR actually fail to properly feed from just pressing the catch on a new mag? It seems to me that if it happened very often, more schools would be demonstrating this technique.

    I suspect this school is just trying to do things a different way so they can be unique and say they are pushing the envelope..... so to speak. It's not the way I was taught, and it doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

    What say you?

    If you have seen it demonstrated, please don't mention the school by name.
     
  2. WoodenPlank

    WoodenPlank Who?

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    The only time I have seen a round fail to feed when the bolt catch was pressed was due to some kind of outside malfunction. Magazine with 31 rounds in it, bad bolt, worn out action spring, mag not inserted all the way, etc. Using the technique described wouldn't have helped with any of those.

    Sounds like a good way to add plenty of time to your reload, IMO.

    Edit: I'd love to hear this instructor explain what's so different about a bolt released by the release catch, and one released by pulling the charging handle to the rear and letting go. I can see more potential for user error in the latter, honestly.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2012

  3. cesaros

    cesaros

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    Agreed.

    After firing thousands of rounds, and reloading hundreds of times with my beat to hell M4...Ive never had a round not load when releasing the bolt. However I HAVE had a round fail to load when racking.

    Not to mention, using this instructors technique wastes alot of time...you're trying to correct a problem that probably wasn't ever there.

    edit: We do use this method when loading a new magazine BETWEEN different courses of fire...but NEVER during a course of fire.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2012
  4. KalashniKEV

    KalashniKEV

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    1) That sounds slow, complex, cumbersome, foolish, and unnecessary.

    2) Anything trained through thousands of repetitions can become fast-er. (See Israeli empty chamber one handed draw throw your hand out to the side technique).

    3) It is likely just another proprietary technique that instructor hopes will differentiate him from the rest of the crowd... sometimes they are pretty good techniques ("urban prone" craze), sometimes they are cumbersome and foolish (7-step shoulder transition technique).

    Getting training from a reputable instructor insulates you from this nonsense... most of the time...
     
  5. Matthew Courtney

    Matthew Courtney Instructor #298

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    I am always cautious when someone claims to be using a technique that makes their training better than everyone else's training. Better methods do evolve, but they tend to get wrung out by several groups over time. With respect to this technique, unless I misunderstood, one is complicating what has always been a simple and reliable method of reloading an AR.
     
  6. K. Foster

    K. Foster

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    As someone else said, this guy is just trying to be different. I would not teach that and I don’t know any reputable instructor that does.
    I know at least one school that teaches to pull the charging handle all the way to the rear to release the bolt, rather than use the bolt latch. The philosophy being, this gives you a little more spring pressure by fully retracting the BCG. I’m not saying I buy into this but it is being taught.
    The method I use and taught, before I retired, was to just hit the bolt latch. Simple and effective.
     
  7. Brian Brazier

    Brian Brazier

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    Sounds like someones trying to make a name for themselves, and not in a good way. Too many unnecessary steps, and a good way to have a failure. I am no expert but why overcomplicate a simple procedure? Drop the mag, insert new magazine, hit the bot release.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2012
  8. MrMurphy

    MrMurphy ********* Moderator Lifetime Member Millennium Member

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    Idiocy is still idiocy.
     
  9. btaylor

    btaylor

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    So, what is the "proper" method?
     
  10. Rooster Rugburn

    Rooster Rugburn Got Pignose?

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    I guess "proper" depends who what class you are taking, or what agency is training you.

    Push the mag release button, insert new magazine, if the bolt locked back, disengage the catch, mostly demonstrated by slapping with the heel of an open hand.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2012
  11. WoodenPlank

    WoodenPlank Who?

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    Alternate: Press mag release, strip empty magazine from mag well, drop empty in dump bag/pouch, grab fresh mag, insert to mag well, and hit bolt release.

    Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2
     
  12. Warp

    Warp ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

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    If the bolt is locked back...with off hand, acquire the new magazine while trigger hand releases empty/old magazine. Generally that spare/new magazine is carried so that grabbing it puts your thumb across the spine/back of the mag and your fingers across the front of the mag (if on your belt at 3 or 9 o'clock, or similar, this means bullets point to the rear in the mag holder). Bring your off hand/new magazine up and insert it into the mag well. Then some people use their off thumb to press the bolt release, some use their palm to smack the bolt release, some use a BAD lever, etc.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6Ta8t16lrk"]Travis Haley: Speed Reloads - YouTube[/ame]
     
  13. Rooster Rugburn

    Rooster Rugburn Got Pignose?

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    This is the kind of guy who seems to feel he is above explaining anything he does. Having trained with him before, I doubt he is going to do much explaining.

    I don't get it either. What is the difference between the force dropping the bolt from locked back, and being racked by the shooter. Plus, it seems to me it could introduce opportunities to fail. If the shooter is rattled and doesn't get a good cycle of the bolt, and that charging handle can be hard to grab in a hurry, then shooter adds even more time.


    I was curious because I don't even believe in a "tactical reload" with a sidearm. IMO, the average civilian who just engaged hostile targets and needs to reload, won't have the dexterity to pull a magazine between the ring and pinky fingers, and then insert the new mag while holding the used mag. If he trains that way, and starts fumbling the process, now his focus is on the mag change process. I don't set myself up for that failure. If I just had to shoot, any mag change is an emergency. I scan for more threats while moving, drop the mag, insert the new mag, move, scan, sul, move. I've had a lot of interesting interactions with instructors over that point. And have been DQ'ed from a lot of matches.
     
  14. Rooster Rugburn

    Rooster Rugburn Got Pignose?

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    I added this to the OP because I didn't want schools being slammed without being represented in the thread to explain their perspective, or the failures that caused this line of thinking.

    BUT. Being the opinionated hard headed guy I am, if I paid money for a 2 or 3 day school, and this is the kind of thing they were teaching, I would start to wonder if I wasted my money.
     
  15. Warp

    Warp ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

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    I don't usually train tactical reloads with magazine retention, either. Most of the time I am carrying a single pistol and no spare magazine, anyway, so reloads are a moot point...but if I do have a spare (rifle or pistol), and actually somehow find myself in a situation where I might reload, I'll just give up the rounds remaining and go to a fresh mag.

    I think the chances of botching the reload, potentially at the cost of being able to shoot back when you need to, or at the cost of situation awareness, is greater than the chances of going through all of the rounds in the new magazine and needing more.

    I've received training that included tac reloads, and I do practice them from time to time, but not really with the intention of employing them.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2012
  16. cowboy1964

    cowboy1964

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    This is stupid. Mags are harder to insert and are more prone to not being fully inserted if the bolt carrier is forward. Same as with some pistols with the slide forward.

    No thanks.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2012
  17. samurairabbi

    samurairabbi Dungeon Schmuck

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    That instructor is adapting a pistol reload technique to his AR reload method..

    Pulling the slide back, rather than hitting the release, DOES gain reloading "energy" by picking up the benefit of the additional spring compression gained by pulling the slide back that extra fraction of an inch. In the shorter travel of a handgun slide, that extra spring energy would make a greater proportional difference than in the longer total travel of a slide loading a rifle round.

    My initial thought, as someone mentioned earlier, is that he wants his training method to be "distinctive" from other methods.
     
  18. Warp

    Warp ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

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    That's a good point. If the bolt is locked back and you need to put a new mag in, it is easier and more consistent to do so with the bolt back. Much, much less likely to insert the magazine only to have it drop to the ground when you let go of it and move the rifle.
     
  19. cowboy1964

    cowboy1964

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    And as Clint Smith says (I'm paraphrasing): "you wasn't in Vietnam so stop doing that".
     
  20. Gunnut 45/454

    Gunnut 45/454

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    Most of the time I carried in the Mil we had to carry chamber closed full mag incerted. Unless we were in a hot area, live training, or executing in training senerio. So much easier just to drop the mag, incert full mag an hit bolt release. Especially when your in a two way range!:supergrin: If it doesn't go bang, tap rack fire! Actually now that I veiwed the Haley vid I do the swing the thumb up while sliding the mag in more then the slap!
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2012