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AR-10 as an all around rifle?

Discussion in 'Black Rifle Forum' started by Beware Owner, Jan 30, 2010.

  1. Beware Owner

    Beware Owner NOT a victim.

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    I'm almost convinced that the AR-10 is the best all around rifle for me. Can anybody tell me the pros and cons of this being my go-to rifle for most situations?
     
  2. txpitdog

    txpitdog

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    I feel/felt the same way. Now I've got an AR-15, and I honestly believe it is more versatile than the AR-10. Mine is a DPMS AP4 and shoots 1-1.5MOA, but I would take the AR-15 over it for the following reasons:

    .308 ammo is twice as expensive as .223
    .308 mags hold 19rds vs. 30 for the .223
    The AR-10 is heavier than the AR-15
    .308 ammo is heavier and bulkier than .223 ammo

    Man or beast inside 100yds, the .223 is plenty effective for practical purposes, so it is unlikely that the .308's power would reduce the needed number of rounds fired to achieve the same result.

    The .308 has the advantage in effective range, same impact energy at 300yds that the .223 has at the muzzle (power), and it penetrates hard targets better. It's just not likely that you'll need that much oomph for any kind of tactical purpose other than sniping. I will likely be trading my AP4 upper for the DPMS A3 Classic (20") upper and adding a Millet DMS-1 scope. For me, I would use the AR-10 or .308 battle rifle for more stationary defense like defending the home in PAW, SHTF, or TEOTWAWKI situations, where the AR-15 is a more mobile platform.

    Regardless though, if you can get an AR-10 and can stock up 1000 rounds, it is a very very comforting and reassuring feeling knowing that if you can hit it you will drop it.

    www.atlanticfirearms.com has re-built CETME .308 battle rifles for $499. New barrels and refinished. If you went this route, you could get one of the bargain bin CMMG AR-15's and come out for the same cost as a new DPMS .308. The JLD PTR91, HK91, RRA LAR, and Armalite AR-10 are all going to be more expensive.
     

  3. Alaskapopo

    Alaskapopo NRA ENDOWMENT

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    The AR10 has more power but its not as reliable in my experience its also harder to shoot in CQB situations due to the greater recoil.
    Pat
     
  4. Alaskapopo

    Alaskapopo NRA ENDOWMENT

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    Little off here. I have 25 round mags for my AR10. I also have 48 round mags for my AR. Not to mention a 100 round Beta C.
    Pat
     
  5. WayaX

    WayaX Lifetime Member

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    Save up for both. In most cases .308 win is too much for home defense because you risk severe over penetration. Also as Pat said, the AR15 works a bit better for CQB.

    Personally, I'm not a fan of the AR-10. If I were getting another .308 it'd be either an FAL (which I already have one), an M1A, or an HK91 (in that order). I'd also really like an LWRC REPR, but until the price drops to reasonable (around $2500) and parts become more plentiful, I'll wait.
     
  6. Jumper

    Jumper

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    I have an AR10 and an AR15 carbine. The only reason I bought the AR15 is because it has a lot of firepower. 30rnd mags, reasonable ammo and mag prices means I can go bang a lot of times. Its a small maneuverable firearm good for CQB stuff. I feel well armed with it available around the house. If I had to choose only one of them it would be the AR10. Everytime. Just because I can engage targets a lot further away than I can with the carbine. It will penetrate barriers much better than the 223. A guy named Ferfal (google for info) survived the argentinian collapse in the 90's(?) and wrote quite extensively on the things he thought would would be REALLY nice to have if he had to live through it again. For a rifle he said he would have given his left nut for a battle rifle in 308. He dismissed the .223 because it can't really shoot through barriers. He said you can pin down someone behind cover with its firepower but what then? Call in an airstrike? A 308 can turn a lot of cover into simple concealment. I guess I just think its a better weapon than the carbine.
     
  7. Alaskapopo

    Alaskapopo NRA ENDOWMENT

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    They have loads for the .223 that will penetrate through cover. The problem is you can't have a load that is good at penetrating and that is also good at stopping. There are trade offs. The .308 has excellent power and range but sucks in CQB situations due to its recoil.
    Here is a simple drill I did with my AR10 carbine and a variety of AR's and AK's.
    3 targets at 7 yards spaced 3 yards apart. I fired 2 into each target starting from the low ready.
    Here are the results.
    .308's

    Gun AR10 carbine Aimpoint M4 2moa dot no muzzle brake just a huge flash hider.

    1. 3.17
    2. 2.88
    3. 2.84
    4. 2.72
    5. 2.83
    Average time 2.89

    HITS

    T1 4 A 2C 3D 1M
    T2 9A 1C
    T3 8A 2C

    Total hits: 21 A 5 C 3D 1 M (miss)

    (Did so bad the first day I tried the AR10 again. I had to slow down to get my hits)

    AR10 12-1-09

    Time

    1. 3.95
    2. 4.04
    3. 3.42
    4. 3.22
    5. 3.33
    6. 3.03

    Average: 3.50

    Hits
    T1 10 A 2 C
    T2 11 A 1 C
    T3 8 A 4C

    Total 29A 7 C


    5.56 AR's

    Colt 6920 Aimpoint (Flash hider no comp)

    TIME
    1. 2.87
    2. 3.08
    3. 2.79
    4. 2.75
    5. 2.87
    Average 2.87

    HITS

    T1 8A 2C
    T2 9A 1C
    T3 8A 2C

    Total hits 25A 5C

    GUN Noveske N4 carbine Aimpoint T1 used.

    TIME

    1. 2.69
    2. 3.07
    3. 2.58
    4. 2.58
    5. 2.29 (one shot not fired so I am not averaging it in for the time)

    Average time for first 4 strings 2.73 seconds.

    HITS

    T1 8 Alpha 2 Charlie
    T2 9 Alpha 1 Charlie
    T3 4 Alpha 5 Charlie (one shot was not fired)

    TOTAL HITS: 21 A 8C (one round not fired)

    N4 just ACOG (TA33 fixed 3 power)

    TIME

    1. 2.64
    2. 2.67
    3. 2.80
    4. 2.59
    5. 2.63

    Average time 2.67

    HITS

    T1 8A 2C
    T2 7A 3C
    T3 8A 2C

    Total hits : 23 A 7C



    Gun Larue Stealth Rifle Swarovski Z6i set at 1x

    TIME

    1. 2.52
    2. 2.59
    3. 2.50
    4. 2.56
    5. 2.69

    Average Time 2.57

    HITS

    T1 9A 1C
    T2 10A
    T3 8A 2C

    TOTAL Hits: 27 A 3 C

    Gun Saber Defense AR15 A2 (IRONS)

    1. 2,57
    2. 2.44
    3. 2.49
    4. 2.62
    5. 2.66

    Average time 2,56

    HITS

    T1 9A 1C
    T2 9A 1D
    T3 7A 3C

    TOTAL hits: 25 A 4 C 1D

    VIDEOS of yours truly.
    MAK 90
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVSNdlDMpiM

    Saiga AK
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3j3i_n7LuP0 (Shooting)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhFbYB55mis (targets)


    AR10 first day when I was faster but sucked on hits.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMyOusJghBw

    AR10 on the second day (when I slowed down a bit)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qK3b6Fif-xE

    Colt 6920 Aimpoint

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFlJVVZDx68

    Noveske (using Aimpoint T1 in Larue off set mount)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zi7DKYdU6Q8

    Noveske (using ACOG)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksh8WqmXNIY

    Larue Stealth with Swarovski
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyAJAC1-Ufs

    Saber Defense A2 (Irons)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDBqlNeoJG8 Shooting
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=721rZXLU1dg Targets

    Assault rifle cartridges have less recoil and are a lot easier to manage when the fight is close and fast. If you truly want the best of power and range in a assault rifle platform then the 6.8 is the round for you.
    Pat
     
  8. PlasticGuy

    PlasticGuy

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    I recently read an article that asserted that none of the AR10's is quite "there" yet, and I agree. They all have flaws and weaknesses that can appear under the right circumstances or after enough rounds have passed through them. I do like the .308 cartridge a lot, and have found that there is more to cartridge effectiveness than how fast I can shoot triple taps, but none of the AR10's would make my list of top choices for a .308 battle rifle.

    I prefer a good FAL carbine, though I would be perfectly content with an M1a Scout or HK91 carbine. All are battle proven designs.
     
  9. GIockGuy24

    GIockGuy24 Bring M&M's

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    7.62 is usually more reliable that 5.56. One reason is feeding the larger diameter cartridge id less touchy. Another is the chamber pressure is not at magnum rifle pressure that 5.56 is. The biggest thing making it more reliable is the heavy extraction rim. The 5.56 has a thin and often weak rim.

    Now not many AR10's are made to military specs. There is a large variation in designs from different companies and due to lower production some cost cutting is made to keep prices competitive. Replacement parts can be an issue. Armalite makes there rifles so tight for accuracy that reliability can suffer. The M14 magazine is the most reliable 7.62 magazine design though. DPMS seems to make a more reliable AR10 type rifle, unlike their AR15's, but DPMS makes their rifles using cheaper, weaker materials. Though they may be strong enough. DPMS receivers are made of lower grade aluminum than Armalite receivers. The original AR10 aluminum waffle magazines were made to be throw-aways and didn't hold up to many reloads. The newer steel magazines can be a short in the cartridge length accepted but the Knight's Armaments magazine don't seem to have this problem. The Bushmaster FAL magazines are not a good choice with a rotating bolt. Also the Bushmaster bolt has smaller / shorter bolt lugs to fit the FAL magazines.

    I did an interesting test. In the Armalite AR10 the bolt to carrier fit is tighter than in an AR15 M16. I removed the gas ring from the Armalite AR10 bolt and fit was tight enough and the cartridge develops enough gas, that the action cycled and functioned 100% with no gas rings. I prefer the design of the DPMS but knowing the material is not as strong as some others can be a weakness. Some of 5.56 DPMS AR15's are terrible quality with their imported parts. Armalite does use the best magazines in the AR10 but the tight fitting of certain parts can stop things when they get dirty or fouled.

    The better military rifle designs have no recoiling parts inside the buttstock and don't use the stock and / or trigger housing to hold the rifle assembly together. Good examples would be the H&K G3, the folding stock FN FAL and the 7.62x51 Galil. A broken stock or buttstock could stop some other rifles.
     
  10. Alaskapopo

    Alaskapopo NRA ENDOWMENT

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    Hate to tell you but Armalites magazines are one of the biggest problem with their rifles. Being a owner of 2 of them. I can tell you the mags are the weak link not the strength.
    Pat
     
  11. GIockGuy24

    GIockGuy24 Bring M&M's

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    That's an issue with magazine quality. The M-14 magazine design is the most reliable design. The quality og magazines varies a lot. 20 years used USGI magazines went for $4 a piece. At that time there were "unissued", "new in the wrapper" "USGI" magazines that sold for much more only they didn't work. At that time it was thought, even by "experts" that they were rejected USGI magazines. These days it's now claimed they were or are fake copies that even have the USGI packaging copied. These magazine even had Armalite fooled. Armalite used to sell conversion kits and instructions to do it yourself. A couple of other companies started making AR10 magazine conversion kits that don't function correctly. The last I heard, Armalite quit selling conversion kits and now only sells complete magazines and had a program of swapping unconverted USGI magazines but I think now even the magazine swapping may have quit.

    It's very difficult to tell certain copies from original magazines. About the best commercial magazines are the CMI M14 magazines. If you have problem magazines, replace them. Sell them and buy different ones. The replacements may even be bad so it does take a bit of work these days. It's not the fault of the magazine design but substandard copies of the magazines. There are companies that even copy the Armalite magazine conversions, so you can get magazines with both a bad copy of an M14 magazine and a bad copy of the AR10 conversion. If your followers are real Armalite, you might keep them and use the parts on some CMI magazines. I know there are many bad magazines around. There are also good magazines.
     
  12. jobob

    jobob

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    308 more reliable than 223? Really?

    From what I've seen at 3gun matches, the 'Heavy Metal' guys (shooting 308's) have a hard time getting through a match without multiple malfunctions. My DPMS 308 is VERY tight, and has been anything but reliable (that's slowly changing as I shoot it and it gets broke in). The DPMS 308 mags I have seem to be pretty poor. Now that Magpul is making 308 mags my mag problem will (hopefully) go away, though.
     
  13. Beware Owner

    Beware Owner NOT a victim.

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    Dang. See, I like the AR15, a lot. Just that it doesn't penetrate much. The 7.62x39 will hurt more than a little bit, but the sights and accuracy aren't as good, not as versatile, and bulkier. I got tired of looking at either, so I'm looking for a caliber that has both penetration, some distance, strong impact, and a versatile platform.
     
  14. Alaskapopo

    Alaskapopo NRA ENDOWMENT

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    Frankly I would like to see your proof to that statement. Sounds like conjecture to me. Where are the tests showing how various 308 magazines perform. I sure have not seen any. Also all my AR10 mags are from Armalite directly not copies. Armalite has had to redesign its mag to make it more reliable. The issue I have with them is when you seat the magazine on on open bolt the top rounds would pop out. Unless you went very slow and gingerly. Not acceptable on a combat weapon.
    Pat
     
  15. Alaskapopo

    Alaskapopo NRA ENDOWMENT

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    Your right on with this assement. The AR10 in general is a much more trouble prone weapon system than the AR15. Mostly because the AR15 has undergone over 40 plus years of tweaking for combat use. The AR10 was shelved for a lot of those years.
    Pat
     
  16. GIockGuy24

    GIockGuy24 Bring M&M's

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    I have seen tests of 7.62 magazines. The M14 magazine has the least resistance to feed a cartridge. It takes the least force. The original AR10 waffle magazines were terrible when new and didn't hold up well. FAL and G3 magazines are not designed to use with a rotating bolt. There are a lot of out of spec "fake" M14 magazines. When these are converted for the AR10 they don't work well. Then there are fake AR10 magazines and conversion kits and followers. If your magazines are bad, try some different magazines. Cartridges popping out is not normal.
     
  17. Alaskapopo

    Alaskapopo NRA ENDOWMENT

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    Actually the cartridge popping out happens with all my AR10 mags from the 10 rounders to the 25. I believe part of the problem is the easy of feeding you mention. Not much is holding the rounds in the mag. Again I purchased my mags directly from Armalite and they are not fake.
    Pat
     
  18. Mayhem like Me

    Mayhem like Me Semper Paratus

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    Do you just make this stuff up??
    NONE of the bolts rotate untill the round is chambered so this is a non event in the design of the weapon magazine.

    G3 magazines are amount the most robust and best designed magazine available you dont find a G3 or 91 with feed problems.


    The amount of friction to feed the cartridge is very subjective and based on spring strength and other tolerance issues.

    The FAL magazine is about the easiest feed as the feed lips for the FAL are actually machined into the reciever, not the magazine body so the FAL as a very easy feed, which is why they suck in an AR style rifle, the Ar style needs a strong magazine lip to hold the round in position for proper feed.

    Since these are all basically push feed systems the rotationg bolt is a non issue.
     
  19. GIockGuy24

    GIockGuy24 Bring M&M's

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    If I remember correctly, from the conversion instructions, the M14 spring is suppose to have too much tension for the AR10 according to Armalite. The M14 springs are suppose to be shortened. Depending on how much, this may cause too little tension but I suspect the springs aren't USGI spring quality and have lost their tension. There are companies that sell magazine sprigs for the AR10 that are 10% greater in tension. Armalite says the standard M14 magazine spring tension is already too great. It might be time to try different magazine springs. I believe your mags are from Armalite but the newer ones aren't made from from USGI parts and there was always some question if the so called USGI magazines were real. I converted my magazines from USED USGI magazines. At the time I bought them there were "new in the wrapper USGI" magazines that were known to be defective. Later it was thought the defective mags were really good looking copies. Armalite goes light on the magazine springs. The newer Armalite magazines are using some new springs that may not be as good in quality.
     
  20. RWBlue

    RWBlue Mr. CISSP, CISA CLM

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    ferfal, is a great guy. I agree with a lot of what he has to say, but he is not a gun guru.. I consider many here more knowledgeable about guns.

    As I understand it, the armalite AR-10 magazine issue has gone away, but you have to buy your magazines from armalite.

    223 has lighter, cheaper ammo with less recoil than 308 ammo.