Any fear Of accidental discharge on a striker fired?

Discussion in 'General Firearms Forum' started by Gnocchi, Sep 29, 2020.

  1. Gokyo

    Gokyo

    Messages:
    4,633
    Likes Received:
    5,266
    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2005
    Location:
    Washington
    If the spring failed then there would be no energy to propel the striker into the primer.

    Failed spring makes the gun less likely to fire accidentally.
     
  2. CBennett

    CBennett

    Messages:
    15,006
    Likes Received:
    3,238
    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2007
    Location:
    PA/Covered by LEOSA
    No, none could it happen?? Sure have I ever seen it happen or heard(from a reliable source) of it ever happening in the last 30 years ive been in LE running ranges or shooting...Nope never heard of it happening from anyone i consider reliable, never seen it on a range, so..no no worries about it.
     

  3. Pistol Pete 10

    Pistol Pete 10

    Messages:
    441
    Likes Received:
    392
    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2018
    You can throw a Series 80 Colt across the room with the thumb safety off and it won't fire, it has roughly the same weight pull as a stock Glock(my Glock trips at 4-1/2#), neither gun will fire unless the trigger is pulled, that's how guns are. Bottom line there is no safety on a Glock sold in the US, and it's a shame. If I was gonna carry a plastic gun I guess it would be a M&P with a safety.
     
    Cabel67 likes this.
  4. checkyoursix

    checkyoursix

    Messages:
    2,030
    Likes Received:
    1,407
    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2009
    Location:
    Texas
    I think at this point your question has been answered fully. In conclusion: as long as you keep your fingers off the trigger and holster competently a good quality striker fired is 100% safe. Most likely, but not surely yet, even Sig 320’s produced recently are drop safe, even though there are recent lawsuits that give one pause.

    One gun that has lost favor recently because of his limited capacity but that would strongly help in that regards is the Walther PPS. It has a striker indicator that protrudes out the back of the gun as the trigger is pressed that really helps in ensuring the trigger is not getting engaged as you holster.

    The video here shows the feature I am talking about at 1:30 mark



    For years a similar device has been available for Glocks and I have used it and use it with full confidence: it’s called quite prosaically the “Gadget” and I highly recommend it (do not have link or affiliation with the creators)

    https://taudevgroup.myshopify.com/products/striker-control-device/

    A video on the gadget:


    View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4t69VcNx-58


    Personally, I don’t and would not carry ANY gun with an external safety. Safeties can fail, and need to be disengaged in haste when in danger, can be engaged inadvertently.... all considerations that have kept me away from any external safety.

    Practice safe gun handling, become very good at it, and carry a gun that you only need to draw and use in the simplest fashion in case of extreme danger, where your performance will be degraded by adrenaline and other factors.

    Draw in a hurry but always holster judiciously and remember, accidental discharges are negligent discharges that can be prevented by competence and attention.

    If after all this you are still concerned, the recommendation of many people to start with a DA/SA makes perfect sense. Sans safety, if you will. Just keep your finger on the hammer as you holster and you will be fine.
     
  5. UncleDave

    UncleDave

    Messages:
    1,502
    Likes Received:
    3,843
    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2018
    Location:
    Used to be America
    The initial problem with the P320 was a drop from suficient height and at a specific angle produced enough inertia to move the trigger a sufficient amount to disengage the striker safety, allowing inertia from the shock of impact to move the striker to hit the primer with enough force to discharge the weapon. A trigger safety ("dingus") or manual safety that blocks the movement of the trigger (like on the M17/M18) would have prevented this. The trigger dingus is a more workable design as it doesn't require any extra effort to disengage.

    Parallel to this was the tendency to fire out-of-battery, which was solved by the addition of a trigger disconnect.

    I find it a bit hokey that both of these safety mechanisms were omitted from the original design, which indicates this pistol was rushed to market without comprehensive testing beyond the bare munimum necessary to "meet standards."

    I feel confident in my upgraded P320's, however. I'm not sure what the exact circumstances are with the incidents listed in the latest lawsuit, as I can find no video evidence of these incidents, nor details surrounding what supporting equipment was being used, how well the weapons were being maintained, how/whether the weapon was being manipulated, whether some of the weapons had not been upgraded, etc. I have bumped, banged, dropped, holstered/unholstered, hit with a hammer, etc. my cocked but unloaded P320's trying to make the strikers release, and they never did, until I pulled the trigger intentionally. So I don't know what's going on with the ones that supposedly fired uncommanded. Since these are reported primarily by LEO's (as were most complaints about Glocks) I suspect most are either mismatched/improper holsters, complacency/negligence, CYA, or a combination of all.

    Tha said, I don't carry my P320's, mostly because they are a bit too chunky for IWB. I do carry my P365 IWB, but would never carry one appendix unless it had a manual safety.
     
    pgg00 likes this.
  6. ede

    ede

    Messages:
    13,135
    Likes Received:
    6,203
    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2004
    Location:
    New Mexico Jemez Mountians
    Glocks or any other striker fired pistol scares the hell out of me. If it doesn't have a safety I don't want anything to do with it.
     
    ShipWreck and PhotoFeller like this.
  7. Bren

    Bren NRA Life Member

    Messages:
    62,956
    Likes Received:
    59,041
    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2005
    Location:
    Kentucky
    [​IMG]
     
  8. 45caldan

    45caldan

    Messages:
    4,113
    Likes Received:
    3,455
    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2007
    Location:
    central Florida
    I recently added a thumb safety to my p365.
    I started out shooting 1911s (as far as autos go) and my thumb will end up resting on the safety and thus moving it to fire position without any thought. the Sig will be the same.
    I carry it IWB and occasionally pocket carry.
    A thumb safety does make me feel better in these carry modes.
     
    n2g, PhotoFeller and Deputydave like this.
  9. Deputydave

    Deputydave Millennium Member

    Messages:
    6,501
    Likes Received:
    7,805
    Joined:
    Feb 20, 1999
    Location:
    Florida
    Unfortunately, this is wishful thinking and not actual fact. If it were, the term 'Glock leg' would never have been coined. As has been explained, at length here and in other similar threads, by multiple people, keeping one's finger off the trigger isn't usually the issue in AD/ND. It is a foreign object entering the trigger guard, usually while in the holster or while being inserted into the holster that causes the trigger to depress unintentionally. That is simply a fact supported by a multitude of actual incidents. Some caught on video. In these instances, a properly engaged MS or grip safety (or both) would have prevented the incident. Thus a short and light striker-fired pistol is less safe than one with a MS and/or grip safety or a DAO or DA/SA pistol with a longer, heavier trigger pull and hammer to provide a tactile feel that there is an issue.
     
    n2g, Cabel67, chemboy and 3 others like this.
  10. checkyoursix

    checkyoursix

    Messages:
    2,030
    Likes Received:
    1,407
    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2009
    Location:
    Texas
    I said “holster competently” in the phrase you quoted, but you might have not noticed it. That means verifying using two senses - sight and tact - that there are no foreign objects in the holster.

    As a SO at matches and pistol instructor I have seen countless people slam their pistols in their holster without a look and or a second of pause. Too fast, too energetically, with no visual confirmation. This is the behavior that causes the injuries you speak about but incorrectly attribute to the lack of an external safety.

    A competent judicious and careful holstering yields no negative effects. I don’t even want to go into the topic of holster design, but since OP is new I will add a word of caution: stay away from Serpa holsters.
     
    pgg00, ThatGuyYouKnow and Bus007 like this.
  11. Deputydave

    Deputydave Millennium Member

    Messages:
    6,501
    Likes Received:
    7,805
    Joined:
    Feb 20, 1999
    Location:
    Florida
    I agree that one needs to holster safety. As an instructor I was always stressing this to those I trained i.e. draw fast/holster slow. However, it isn't always feasible or as easy as on a range. Dim light conditions, adverse weather conditions, stress situations that require faster transition from lethal to non-lethal etc can make it difficult, impossible or impractical to thoroughly check the holster each and ever time prior to inserting the weapon. And even when you think you've done everything right something can be dragged into the holster upon insertion which blocks the view of the interior of the holster. Such as we all saw with that viral video of the instructor shooting himself with his G43. He didn't act stupidly or rashly. He 'looked' the pistol into the holster. But unfortunately, while inserting the pistol it caught a little bit of shirt during the insert that couldn't be seen from his angle of view. With striker-fired pistols normally having a short and light pull it is simply easier for the trigger to be pulled intentionally or unintentionally. And because of the design, there is no tactile feel that there is an issue until it becomes an issue. That's just the nature of the design and it can be a two-edged sword.

    Thus a MS and/or grip safety in these instances would have prevented a ND. Even with a foreign object that gets into the holster and into the trigger guard and depresses the trigger, a MS and/or grip safety would prevent the discharge. And of course the tactile feel on a hammer-fired pistol/revolver can provide early warning of an issue.

    So while I like my Glocks and other striker-fired pistols, I simply acknowledge that they are inherently less-safe than striker-fired pistols with MS and/or grip safeties or hammer-fired pistols. This is why I prefer my P365 with a MS and my hammer-fired HK's. I'm not going to ditch my Glocks nor am I suggesting anyone should. But it is a legitimate conversation to acknowledge the limitations of the design or possible safety concerns.
     
    n2g, Cabel67, CZ Glock and 2 others like this.
  12. Glock4life!

    Glock4life!

    Messages:
    107
    Likes Received:
    116
    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2020
    I'm not sure I believe a grip safety would help on a striker fired pistol. When I re-holster I do not change my grip or remove my palm like you would have to if you had a grip safety. I make sure my finger is out of the trigger guard along the slide and slowly insert into my holster until I hear the click from the Kydex.
     
    n2g likes this.
  13. Deputydave

    Deputydave Millennium Member

    Messages:
    6,501
    Likes Received:
    7,805
    Joined:
    Feb 20, 1999
    Location:
    Florida
    When discussing a grip safety, I think of the guy with the G43 ND. He had the pistol inserted and it did not discharge until he bent over causing the under shirt to pull on the trigger. While a grip safety would not have necessarily helped if the foreign object immediately depressed the trigger, it would have helped in a situation such as this where the discharge was caused after the fact.

    Personally, I prefer a MS over a grip safety as it would eliminate more issues overall. However, like my wife's 380 EZ, it has both. So if it has both then fine, redundancy isn't a bad thing.
     
    Cabel67 likes this.
  14. Glock4life!

    Glock4life!

    Messages:
    107
    Likes Received:
    116
    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2020
    Great point of view Deputydave, I was not thinking of a possibility where a ND could happen after the firearm was fully holstered.
     
    n2g, Iceman cHucK and Deputydave like this.
  15. checkyoursix

    checkyoursix

    Messages:
    2,030
    Likes Received:
    1,407
    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2009
    Location:
    Texas
    I disagree on the safeties for two major reasons: 1) People who holster under stress are just as real as people who have to draw under a bigger stress (by definition one can state stress is higher at the moment of drawing than at the moment of holstering) and forget to disengage the safety, don’t remember if it was engaged and check it to be sure, or engage it inadvertently while shooting or manipulating.

    2) I think it’s counterproductive to the point of being dangerous to have some guns with a safety and some without if those guns are used for self defense. Point in case the person who says “my Glocks are for HD only”. Good luck remembering which is which “in the gravest extreme” and act accordingly.

    I think that if one adopts the safeties then one should only use guns with a safety for consistency, and viceversa. Do not trust yourself to act at 100% in a moment of extreme danger and stress.

    Do what you prefer, but do it all the time. This is why I own zero guns with a safety, and will maintain that number constant. If you prefer safeties go with it, but do not use any guns without in any self defense role is my advice.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2020
    Master Guns likes this.
  16. Glock4life!

    Glock4life!

    Messages:
    107
    Likes Received:
    116
    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2020
    Another great point and one that I was told/taught when buying my first handgun. The opinion that if you are going to use a handgun for self-defense then it's better to stick with one manual of arms. Same manipulation, trigger pull, felt/presumed recoil, grip, point of aim and so on. It stuck with me as I was trying different handguns to decide which I would buy. I did notice the differences when renting multiple firearms from multiple manufactures at the same time and quickly A/B testing them. I decided that if I liked Glock or Sig or whatever that I would keep only those pistols in the safe for consistency, the ability to swap parts, use larger capacity magazines and so on.

    Not claiming to be a statistician but I'd wager that the probability of a ND without a manual external safety is close to or the same as a firearm with an external manual safety. Those parts can fail, they can give you a false sense of security and you could easily think it was engaged when it wasn't.
     
  17. Deputydave

    Deputydave Millennium Member

    Messages:
    6,501
    Likes Received:
    7,805
    Joined:
    Feb 20, 1999
    Location:
    Florida
    While you're entitled to your opinion, let's take a closer look at the validity of the argument.

    So the argument is that, while under stress, people are going to forget to disengage the MS before firing or engage the safety before holstering the pistol. So here are some consideration; First, while this is an often cited concern it in various magazines and gun 'experts', it doesn't appear to have much, if any, real world data to back up the concern. In 35 years of shooting, collecting data on shootings, interviewing those involved in shootings I've never once heard of someone dying because they forgot to disengage the MS. I'm sure that perhaps it's happened to someone, somewhere maybe, but it's simply not a 'thing'. It's more of an urban legend like 'don't modify your gun or the opposing attorney is going to have a field day with you in court'. Sure, I suppose it 'could' happen but pretty much it doesn't. Secondly, if someone is going to 'forget' to disengage the safety under stress then they simply have no hope of remembering how to depress the trigger because that is a much more complicated set of movements. And you can forget about doing a reload or malfunction drill because those are a wildly more complicated set of movements. I've described this in great detail in the past. The short version is that sweeping the MS off requires one motion of the thumb along one plane. Depressing the trigger on the other hand requires lifting the trigger finger from the side of the frame (where it should be if properly trained), moving it downward along one plane, moving the finger inward along a different plane of travel and finally squeezing the trigger along a third plane of travel. It is simply a more complicated set of movements than sweeping the trigger off. And since I've also never heard of anyone that forgot how to pull the trigger under stress it is also a non-issue. So in effect, people have been able, with proper training, to disengage a MS, pull a trigger, do a combat reload and clear malfunctions under stress since pistols were designed with MS, triggers and other moving parts. Forgetting to properly engage a MS prior to holstering is also simply a matter of training. And since a person should be trained and familiar with any tool they operate it's a non-issue.

    On the other hand, we can amply demonstrate an unlimited number of ND with pistols, particularly striker-fired pistols without MS that have discharged inadvertently. So that is an actual issue to be concerned with.

    Another example is a level III holster. My duty holster required me to move a lever backward with my thumb, then move my thumb to a second lever that I had to push down and rotate forward in order to extract the pistol from the holster. With a small amount of training I was able to do so, and did so under stress in several real world altercations during my career. Again, way more complicated than simply sweeping a thumb safety down.

    Again, while anything is possible, I've never even heard of it happening and thus while it is an often touted point of concern, it just doesn't seem to happen in the real world. I've never heard of anyone bumping the MS and engaging it in a fire fight or during training. Indeed, many safeties make it difficult or highly improbable to do so under recoil. It is much more likely that a person is going to ride the slide stop/release lever and cause a malfunction yet those seem to be on every pistol made and folks aren't generally concerned with them.

    I would have to suggest that this is another fallacy concern. I started out on revolvers but then to pistols with MS. Yet for three decades I've been able to go back and forth, under stress, with either platform without issue. I generally sweep of the MS on pistols that don't even have MS such as my Glocks. It is simply a nature motion that I don't even think about when grasping the pistol. In teaching, training and competitions I've seen many folks that have been properly trained use either and both in the same training sessions without issue.

    I do trust myself because I've done it in real world situations and personally know those that have done so as well. Again, simply a matter of proper training which should be adhered to regardless of the preferred platform. The motion of disengaging a MS is a nature motion that I do on any platform whether or not it actually has a MS. It doesn't interfere with the grip or operation of the pistol in any way, shape or form and does not slow down the operation of the pistol. When properly trained, the MS is disengaged about the time the pistol clears the holster. And as discussed, while concerns against are generally nebulous at best, it can be amply demonstrated that the lack of a MS on a striker-fired pistol can and does cause ND. Even if proper precautions have been taken.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2020
    chemboy, rogn, Bus007 and 1 other person like this.
  18. checkyoursix

    checkyoursix

    Messages:
    2,030
    Likes Received:
    1,407
    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2009
    Location:
    Texas
    One last comment: I find it a but counterintuitive that you are skilled in all respects under all circumstances with all platforms and yet the possibility of having an unseen and unfelt piece of garment find its way to the trigger is something you cannot cope with.

    Also, ignoring the solution that has been developed exactly for that problem - the gadget - gives me pause. As I stated, the gadget was developed and has been adopted by many serious shooters for that very purpose.

    That said, I maintain my recommendation to new shooters: choose one manual of arms, stick with it. One day, when a lot of water has gone under the bridge and a lot of lead over it, choose for yourself. For now, do not confuse yourself.
     
    ShipWreck likes this.
  19. eagle359

    eagle359 Glock Fanboi

    Messages:
    2,412
    Likes Received:
    4,210
    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2000
    Location:
    Gretna,LA,USA
    I do not know if you would call it fear or respect. Every time I pick up a firearm a little voice in my head says "Be careful". The Glock safety system has proven itself worthy of little or no concern about AD/ND. If you do your part!!
     
    alank2 and FullClip like this.
  20. Deputydave

    Deputydave Millennium Member

    Messages:
    6,501
    Likes Received:
    7,805
    Joined:
    Feb 20, 1999
    Location:
    Florida
    While I appreciate being considered in that light, I have never stated that I was skilled in all respects with all platforms. I am however skilled in many to an advanced level. That's not patting myself on the back, simply stating that over the last 35 years I've taken a lot of advanced training.

    Note sure why you don't think it's something I can't 'cope' with, particularly since I'm the one that has stated these things happen, in real life, to real people, of all training levels. Thus having a properly engaged MS on platforms, particularly ones that are proven to be less safe i.e. striker-fired platforms, is always a prudent choice.

    If by this you're referring to the Glock Striker Control Device, where have I ignored it? Point in fact, I can remember recently discussing it in another thread with a different member and stated it was a useful modification that perhaps should be standard on striker-fired pistols, particularly those with no external manual safety. While it won't prevent a ND (in the way that a MS will), it can provide a tactile feel to indicate a problem is occurring IF one is properly trained on how to holster a firearm. So I'm not sure why you would have a 'pause'? I think my only 'negative' comment was the cost, which, like many Glock add-ons is too expensive imo. And again, perhaps it should be a standard item that comes with a Glock since they refuse to allow private citizens (their largest market) the option. The three parts for my P365 and the new grip frame module with the proper cut outs was less money than this single part. Having said that, if it adds a layer of safety then it's a plus.

    Which includes striker-fired pistols with MS. And I would add to the statement that if they want to increase the level of inherent and available safety the platform should include that MS.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2020
    Bus007 and PhotoFeller like this.