Another shameless plug for the .40 lovers

Discussion in 'Caliber Corner' started by naughtymoose, May 19, 2020.

  1. fredj338

    fredj338

    Messages:
    33,917
    Likes Received:
    13,255
    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Location:
    so.cal.
    If you read thru it you'll see specs for storing powder & primers. Like I said, not really enforcable, but it is there.
     
  2. Keith E.

    Keith E.

    Messages:
    378
    Likes Received:
    187
    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2003
    Location:
    N.C.
    Fred,

    I'm going to take me and my 20+ years of code enforcement experience (Certified Level 3 in Building, Electrical, Mechanical, Plumbing & Fire) and move on after deferring to your knowledge on the subject. My only reason for responding was to help prevent others from being given incorrect information. Your last sentence in the above reply would be nice to put in your first mention of the code that you referenced.

    Keith
     

  3. fredj338

    fredj338

    Messages:
    33,917
    Likes Received:
    13,255
    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Location:
    so.cal.
    I believe I did mention it wasnt really enforceable. Fwiw, I work with bldg inspectors all the time. Many have code interpretations that make my headspin, just flat wrong. So with all due respect, whay you think isnt anymore valid than what I do on interpretation of bldg codes. Feel free to red flag this.
     
  4. Keith E.

    Keith E.

    Messages:
    378
    Likes Received:
    187
    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2003
    Location:
    N.C.
    Relax man. I've already admitted defeat, you've already won. I'll see what I can do about getting you a trophy for your victory. I'm not familiar with red flag reference so I'll just be ignorant and apathetic on your last little nugget of wisdom.
     
  5. fredj338

    fredj338

    Messages:
    33,917
    Likes Received:
    13,255
    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Location:
    so.cal.
    Nice, as usual a dick code enforcement guy. Well done. Napoleon wants his hat back. Gees.
     
    SargeMO likes this.
  6. cowboy1964

    cowboy1964

    Messages:
    30,499
    Likes Received:
    17,307
    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2009
    Location:
    U.S.A.
    .40 minor kind of defeats the point of .40.

    Most .40 ammo is still higher priced. Where is the equivalent, brass-cased, overrun, 9mm version? To be a fair comparison it has to be the SAME.
     
  7. Pn3455

    Pn3455

    Messages:
    91
    Likes Received:
    197
    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2019
    This thread is Fcked. Op dude talks about .40 and it gets to guys fighting about building code. Seriously go dry fire or something. Some times I dont know why I even venture to the forums.
     
    SargeMO and triggerjerk like this.
  8. fredj338

    fredj338

    Messages:
    33,917
    Likes Received:
    13,255
    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Location:
    so.cal.
    Yet everything fails at some point. So it always comes down to what you shoot best. Today that is the 9mm for the vast majority. Even if like me you can shoot anything, you will shoot the 9mm better. One reason I am just fine switching from my 45 as an edc. A smaller/lighter gun, more rds that pretty much does the same thing, as long as you feed it a good jhp. That is the real drawback of 9mm, it is more bullet dependent for best results Imo.
     
  9. fredj338

    fredj338

    Messages:
    33,917
    Likes Received:
    13,255
    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Location:
    so.cal.
    For competition though, it has merit.
     
  10. fredj338

    fredj338

    Messages:
    33,917
    Likes Received:
    13,255
    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Location:
    so.cal.
    Its the way forums go & yet here you are griping about the thread drift? Too funny.:horsey:
     
  11. BobJones777

    BobJones777

    Messages:
    40
    Likes Received:
    15
    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2020
    "Because unless you hit something vital, it doesn't matter what you hit them with. You could hit them with a .45 in the shoulder, they're gonna survive. You hit them with a 9mm in the shoulder, they're gonna survive. You hit them with a .22 in the brain they could die. So, stopping a threat really does not come down to caliber, it is shot placement."
    https://www.policemag.com/374542/a-trauma-surgeon-talks-about-wound-ballistics-and-stopping-power

    false. mortal wounds do not necessarily stop threats. df would a trauma surgeon know about anything other than patching up holes- he gets there after the "threat" is already on a stretcher and opines about caliber? has this guy ever shot an animal and seen it run further faster than he could imagine while it had its heart shot out?

    People use .40 because it offers energy beyond what 9mm can and is a reasonable compromise between power and capacity and weight and size. Energy produces stopping effects despite nobody's ability to yet quantify them. 9mm cultists need to man up and learn to shoot better. I don't care if you can shoot a 22 better than a .357, so ****ing what? Everyone can.
     
    GhostFace and Longbow like this.
  12. fredj338

    fredj338

    Messages:
    33,917
    Likes Received:
    13,255
    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Location:
    so.cal.
    Hmm, well a mortal wound will eventually stop the fight. One shot stops are reserved for the cns. As far as energy, not really much diff between 9mm +p & 40 related to energy. So it really does come down to fast, accurate hits with good bullets. The tiny energy diff in service calibers means little. Anyone really believe 30-40ft# is making the diff in a fight?
    9mm/124gr+p = 380
    40/180gr = 400
    45/230 = 410
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2020
  13. BobJones777

    BobJones777

    Messages:
    40
    Likes Received:
    15
    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2020
    There's a substantially larger power gap between typical 9mm and typical .40 from realistic CCW barrels than you assert. Typical 9mm ammo delivers low 300s fpe from a M&P9c. Typical .40 delivers mid to high 300s and in many cases mid 400s from a G27, which is a similar sized pistol. There are exceptions- but if you compare the highest performance ammo on LG's test bench and you filter by rounds that had 5/5 expansion and 12-18" penetration, you find that there are zero 9mm rounds that meet this filter above 400fpe. HST 124+p is near the top at 376fpe. In .40 there are several in the 440fpe range. Yes, 20% more energy makes a difference. You literally cherrypicked the slowest bullets in .40 and .45 to try to defend your 9mm preference. 155 and 165 gr .40s have considerably higher fpes as well as .45 including 185gr GS +p (high M&S ranking) which comes in at 543fpe from a fullsize barrel but 427 from a Kahr 45.

    Average energy across ALL LG's test rounds is 328 for 9mm and 373 for .40.
     
    CrashFF00, Bus007 and OdinIII like this.
  14. SargeMO

    SargeMO

    Messages:
    1,741
    Likes Received:
    2,292
    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2007
    [QUOTE="BobJones777]

    false. mortal wounds do not necessarily stop threats. df would a trauma surgeon know about anything other than patching up holes- he gets there after the "threat" is already on a stretcher and opines about caliber? has this guy ever shot an animal and seen it run further faster than he could imagine while it had its heart shot out?

    [/QUOTE]

    This, in a nutshell. Absent a recovered projectile (which is examined and described by the state crime lab) even medical examiners report 'apparent gunshot wound'.

    Coming soon.... "Youtube hydrologist proves conclusively that water runs uphill !!!"
     
  15. pairof44sp

    pairof44sp

    Messages:
    165
    Likes Received:
    143
    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2020
    Good to know. I'm tired of having to track the groundhogs I shoot with 9mm.
     
  16. BobJones777

    BobJones777

    Messages:
    40
    Likes Received:
    15
    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2020
    I find it disconcerting that people rely on marketing from Federal to steer them toward ammo that was goal-seeked for specific performance in gel, along with reliance on a federal agency not known for its veracity but well-known for its political bent and which DOES NOT get into gunfights. So what if FBI agents who virtually never draw their weapons or engage armed suspects (something they did learn from the Dade incident) prefer this or that?

    FFS, they're attempting to water down tier 2 SOCOM requirements so as to meet political objectives...the first women to pass Ranger qual were walked through the course privately by the General who passed them on his own authority. Nobody believes they actually qualified. It is known that they failed repeatedly on portions of the qual that would have (and routinely HAVE) sent men home with a "thanks and good luck." The general in command gave them infinite recycles then flat denied he did it or that there was ever any political pressure or angle to it. If they're willing to water down specops quals just to have women, does anyone believe that a "civilian" agency like FBI isn't under the same pressure?

    I did not find FBI's shooting qual to be particularly difficult with a full size .45 shooting half with +P 230gr ammo and half with generic ball. 47/50. It wasn't much of a challenge and while I am very good in slow fire, all the rapid segments FBI wants...at that point I had not even really practiced such things very much at all and was only getting back into the range after years' layoff. It stuns me that people struggle to pass this even with 9mm. But FBI has its goals for its agent pool and gunfight effectiveness is not, repeat NOT a significant factor for them. The science they sponsored was intended to justify a decision they wanted to make. Federal's engineers are there to sell Federal HSTs and if you're afraid of .45, don't worry, our 9mm is "just as effective as .357; it does the same depth and expansion in gel!!" Never mind what hunters say when they shoot animals in the size class of a man...never mind 70 years' of street performance anecdotes which converge around what M&S said. Nobody was surprised (except trauma surgeons) that FMJ and JHP in the same caliber had wildly disparate M&S rankings and wildly disparate reputations for effectiveness. Nobody was surprised when .357mag was at the top and .25ACP near the bottom...except trauma surgeons.

    Lord help us if someone engineers a .25ACP that does 12-18" and 1.5x expansion. One or two rounds in .380ACP are already there...is this the next big trend? Ellifritz is already saying .380 is as statistically effective as 9mm...so why bother with the significantly higher recoil of the 9 if penetration and expansion are all that matter for effectiveness?

    .40 was engineered to solve the irreconcilable gap between 45 and 9mm and did so quite admirably. When .40 was made, gross rankings of effectiveness by M&S were out there so it was pretty well known what metrics made a round effective versus one which wasn't. But, one component of this triad was energy...all the top M&S rounds packed 450+ fpe, with the .45 GS and .357 coming in over 500 fpe. At the same time, they all show ideal gel expansion and penetration.

    Think about this- if energy doesn't matter it would be SUBSTANTIALLY easier to simply slow down existing FMJ rounds till they achieved requisite penetration depth, thus avoiding the need for HP expansion altogether. Less recoil, quicker follow ups. bla bla bla.

    .40 compromises between capacity, energy, recoil, penetration, and expansion with an average result better for use on people than anything I can think of. This cartridge was built for AP use. The extra 2 rds in your Block 19 are not gonna help you if the problem wasn't solved with the first 13, I'm sorry to say.

    And, think about this- when you do have to shoot someone 6 or 8 times with your 9, Federal's engineers will be right there to testify how 9 is just as effective for an immediate stop as a more powerful caliber consequently you had intent to kill.
     
  17. OdinIII

    OdinIII

    Messages:
    1,150
    Likes Received:
    539
    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2001
    Location:
    North Georgia
    I like how you think BobJones!

    It’s always tickled me that the 9mm fans happily mention studies where there is little statistical difference in actual shootings between service calibers but completely ignore that the studies often suggest that we should carry a .380 or 25.

    I’m carrying 9’s these days but I’m not going to say that they are as effective as more powerful rounds.
     
  18. BobJones777

    BobJones777

    Messages:
    40
    Likes Received:
    15
    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2020
    I have a Block19 (who doesn't?) that I keep in the car with Fed's 135gr tac bonded rounds. Have much boxes I picked up in '08 during the last TEOTWAWKI episode. Stuff outperforms HSTs in barrier penetration...saw a YT on it where it got through a plywood/gallon jug/plywood/gallon jug where the 147 HST failed completely. Doesn't pack nearly as much energy as my B19 AP carry which is Fed's 124+p HST (probably the best AP round for this caliber/size class). But if I have to shoot through my own windshield, a thing that seemed incomprehensible a few months ago but now seems almost predictable, HSTs do suffer jacket separation and/or reduced penetration against these barriers according to tests like the old Box O' Truth, whereas the tac bondeds don't.

    But if I'm out and about, I strap a .40 on. If my followups suck I practice more until they don't.

    If I'm out in the woods, it's 45 Super. The top two rounds heavy HST +p ACP. If I were charged by a bear, I consider those first two warning shots lol. The remainder of the mag (11), 255gr hardcast Super. A heavy +p ACP HP round will still be fairly decisive against feral dogs or feral humans but I don't expect this round to drop a bear or big hog absent serious good luck. I also don't expect to have to engage a dog or human with more than a couple of rounds as these feral animals tend to scatter when shot.

    Different tools for different jobs. Always compromises because there is no perfect solution that fits all problems.

     
    Bus007 likes this.
  19. Longbow

    Longbow Millennium Member

    Messages:
    2,238
    Likes Received:
    2,246
    Joined:
    Sep 19, 1999
    Location:
    North of Chica-go
    The best performing 9mm load cannot equal the best performing .40 load.
     
    GhostFace and Bus007 like this.
  20. TheDreadnought

    TheDreadnought

    Messages:
    8,698
    Likes Received:
    15,507
    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2014
    Examining bullet performance in isolation is missing the forest for the trees.

    Dislaimer: I’m a .40 fan who also likes .45. I use both for HD, but I carry a 9mm.

    There’s no question that bullet for bullet larger calibers can do more damage than smaller calibers.

    But that’s not the yardstick that measures a calibers effectiveness. The ability to stop a fight and save your life is what matters.

    The best way to stop a fight is multiple rounds on target in vital locations, fast.

    Multiple hits in better locations is > than fewer hits that do more damage each, but to less vital areas.

    If you can shoot a .40 just as well and as fast as a 9mm, by all means, that should be your go to.

    When it comes to ending a fight, if you can get faster more accurate hits out of a 9, that will significantly outweigh the slight ballistic advantage .40 has over 9.

    In my case I switched to 9mm because my Beretta APX is 9mm and it’s such a good shooter and so ergonomically correct that I shoot it better than any of my other pistols regardless of caliber. If I had one in .40 I’d probably have much the same experience — but what I have is a 9 and so that is what I carry.

    As far as .40 vs .45 I think the two are so close that they are functional equivalents. The .40 might even get better penetration than the .45.

    But the often times 50% capacity advantage the .40 has over the .45 is such an upgrade it completely outweighs anything slight advantage the .45 brings to the table. You’re better prepared to stop a fight with 15 .40s than you are with 10 .45s.

    I view .40 as the modern update on the .45. It’s just better.

    That said, .45 is still a great round that is also a lot of fun to shoot, so it will do just fine for you if that is your choice. I’m actually looking to shoot more of it myself.