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UBER VOL !!!
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
https://www.theblaze.com/news/woman-beach-dragged-away-by-cops

All stay at home orders are based on the validity of protecting OTHERS, not YOU.

If she is alone, what is the basis for the State claiming that she is harming others?

Also, she has a sign that looks and smells like BAIT. It’s a sucker’s trap.

Discretion is the better part of valor.
 
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10mm Philosopher
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https://www.theblaze.com/news/woman-beach-dragged-away-by-cops
All stay at home orders are based on the validity of protecting OTHERS, not YOU.
If she is alone, what is the basis for the State claiming that she is harming others?
Also, she has a sign that looks and smells like BAIT. It’s a sucker’s trap.
Discretion is the better part of valor.
Same thing happened in New Jersey.

A guy completely alone on a beach was arrested. But there the arrest and charge was technically for 'trespass' (because the beach district was closed to the public), rather than for violating a health dept. order.

That said, if such arrests are premised on violating a particular health order, the burden will be on the state (i.e., prosecutors) to demonstrate the medical basis and health-threat underlying the order, and how the defendant's conduct of being alone on a beach, or walking alone in a park, was an imminent threat to public health or safety.
 

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I’m sure they’ll just argue that she had to actually get to the beach in the first place, which might mean passing others on walkways and touching things like gas pumps. I don’t agree with it, for the record.
 

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UBER VOL !!!
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Same thing happened in New Jersey.

A guy completely alone on a beach was arrested. But there the arrest and charge was technically for 'trespass' (because the beach district was closed to the public), rather than for violating a health dept. order.

That said, if such arrests are premised on violating a particular health order, the burden will be on the state (i.e., prosecutors) to demonstrate the medical basis and health-threat underlying the order, and how the defendant's conduct of being alone on a beach, or walking alone in a park, was an imminent threat to public health or safety.
Im still not convinced that a person can be trespassed from a public land for no reason other than “it is closed, we said so”.

The shoulder of the road is public land. Everywhere. If the shoulder is private, so is the road.

I cannot be trespassed from a sidewalk. I CAN be prohibited from blocking a sidewalk, or loitering on a sidewalk, or walking down a PARTICULAR stretch of sidewalk for safety reasons, construction, etc. But you can’t ban me from the general concept of “walking or standing on a sidewalk”.

How is “the beach” different from “the sidewalk”? How about “the lake”?, “the mountains”, etc.

Lots of public parks have hours. Most Knoxville parks are “dawn til dusk”. Those are normal operating hours, based on safety and crime prevention. They aren’t just closed forever, til the boss says so.

Interested to hear everyone’s take on this.
 

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Im still not convinced that a person can be trespassed from a public land for no reason other than “it is closed, we said so”.

The shoulder of the road is public land. Everywhere. If the shoulder is private, so is the road.

I cannot be trespassed from a sidewalk. I CAN be prohibited from blocking a sidewalk, or loitering on a sidewalk, or walking down a PARTICULAR stretch of sidewalk for safety reasons, construction, etc. But you can’t ban me from the general concept of “walking or standing on a sidewalk”.

How is “the beach” different from “the sidewalk”? How about “the lake”?, “the mountains”, etc.

Lots of public parks have hours. Most Knoxville parks are “dawn til dusk”. Those are normal operating hours, based on safety and crime prevention. They aren’t just closed forever, til the boss says so.

Interested to hear everyone’s take on this.
You have kind of answered your own question here......
“Lots of public parks have hours”

What happens when you are in that park outside of allowable hours that are posted for public use??

Let me attempt to explain. Parks, beaches, buildings, lands, structures, etc are owned by the municipality. As they are owned by the municipality they are actually all classified as private property. They are not public property. The caveat is that they are accessible to the public. No different than your grocery store, restaurant, church, theatre, et al. Since they are all private property the municipality has the authority to set specific hours of operation or can even close them indefinitely if deemed proper.

My department has running lists of those who are banned from certain public spaces. They have been advised, due to their misdeeds, that unless they are present for an official purpose they will be subject to arrest for trespassing.


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This particular case isn’t going to SCOTUS because of the fact it was on land that was closed. Regardless of the reason of why it was closed, it’s not a covid arrest . It’s a trespass.

There are many other cases that are covid “social distancing “ arrests that will be heard by SCOTUS before this one .
 

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UBER VOL !!!
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
You have kind of answered your own question here......
“Lots of public parks have hours”

What happens when you are in that park outside of allowable hours that are posted for public use??

Let me attempt to explain. Parks, beaches, buildings, lands, structures, etc are owned by the municipality. As they are owned by the municipality they are actually all classified as private property. They are not public property. The caveat is that they are accessible to the public. No different than your grocery store, restaurant, church, theatre, et al. Since they are all private property the municipality has the authority to set specific hours of operation or can even close them indefinitely if deemed proper.

My department has running lists of those who are banned from certain public spaces. They have been advised, due to their misdeeds, that unless they are present for an official purpose they will be subject to arrest for trespassing.


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Excellent post, Papa!

I completely agree with everything you said. I’ve seen people get arrested for public housing trespass. Repeatedly.

You can close a park indefinitely. Hell, the city council can close a park permanently and sell the land.

They could certainly close a mile of sidewalk, deem it dangerous, tear it out, and re-pour it. Take 5 years doing it? Sure, we might complain about that but it is perfectly legal.

What’s the specific, rational, legal basis to close ALL the sidewalks? A broad, general ”I said so” doesn’t cut it for me. I hope a ton of these nonsense, non-legislated restrictions get challenged in court.

Where is the legal authority to close vast swaths of public land based on a temporary decree vaguely formulated on “safety”?


This whole thing is starting to feel like a silly old movie where the king declares that no one can go “over there”, because of dragons.
 

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https://www.theblaze.com/news/woman-beach-dragged-away-by-cops

All stay at home orders are based on the validity of protecting OTHERS, not YOU.

If she is alone, what is the basis for the State claiming that she is harming others?

Also, she has a sign that looks and smells like BAIT. It’s a sucker’s trap.

Discretion is the better part of valor.
The inability (or unwillingness) of a lot of Governors and police to think in basic constitutional law terms has been amazing me for a couple of months now.

Simple things a first-year law student should immediately recognize: if people can shop at Walmart together, there is no constitutional way you can prevent them from going to church together or protesting the government together; if your order to stay home is based on spreading a disease, then it's unconstitutional as applied to activities that don't involve contact between people; if it's safe enough for liquor stores to be open, it's safe enough for other stores to be open; etc., etc.

Basically, government action on any fundamental right (i.e., first amendment, interstate travel, etc.) has to (1) further a "compelling governmental interest," and (2) be "narrowly tailored" to achieve that interest.

If it's safe enough for Walmart to be open, your governmental interest in closing churches fails #1. If Walmart is OK because of social distancing, your order fails #2.

If the order to stay home is based on a "compelling governmental interest" in keeping people separate to avoid spreading disease, then it's "unconstitutional as applied" when you arrest somebody who is doing something alone, outside. It fails #2, because keeping people apart doesn't require everybody to stay in their house.
 

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I wonder how many here will be defending their governors when they use their "emergency powers" to take their guns.
From what I've seen, many on this forum will hand them over without so much as a pout.
 

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I wonder how many here will be defending their governors when they use their "emergency powers" to take their guns.
From what I've seen, many on this forum will hand them over without so much as a pout.
In Kentucky that's the only thing that the Governor specifically can't do with his emergency powers.
 

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I wonder how many here will be defending their governors when they use their "emergency powers" to take their guns.
From what I've seen, many on this forum will hand them over without so much as a pout.
I haven’t seen a defense of these governors actions on this forum. Explaining something is different than agreeing with it.

As far as closing parks etc, they can legally do that without emergency powers and was done everyday. In fact, Gov. Cuomo here couldn’t get rid of the homeless in the subways because the DAs wouldn’t prosecute for violations of the transit laws as part of their social thing. So the homeless took over. What did the governor finally do? He closes the subway to the public every night now and it forces the homeless out. He can legally he can do it and parks here had closing hours for years before I was even born. It’s no different than a courthouse having the hours in which it’s closed or open to the public .

Telling people they can’t protest is unconstitutional. Telling people they can’t assemble or conduct a funeral is unconstitutional. And I am glad I am not on the front line on that one. Notice that the Hasidic Jews who have these mass funerals still have them despite the Mayor’s effort to break it up and a “ half hearted” attempt by the police ( the newspaper’s description). Those officers were only pretending to try. And yes they did arrest people who protested and I hope the city gets sued for a lot of money.

I hope a federal judge steps in and orders the city to stop or at least forces them to allow it under certain conditions.
 

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Personally, I won't be surprised to see that the next "big wave" of problems resulting from this covid19 mess is an unending series of lawsuits against states and municipalities for actions taken by politicians.

If states and municipalities think they're hurting for money now, imagine the costs of what might happen in state and local courts.
 

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Im still not convinced that a person can be trespassed from a public land for no reason other than “it is closed, we said so”.

The shoulder of the road is public land. Everywhere. If the shoulder is private, so is the road.

I cannot be trespassed from a sidewalk. I CAN be prohibited from blocking a sidewalk, or loitering on a sidewalk, or walking down a PARTICULAR stretch of sidewalk for safety reasons, construction, etc. But you can’t ban me from the general concept of “walking or standing on a sidewalk”.

How is “the beach” different from “the sidewalk”? How about “the lake”?, “the mountains”, etc.

Lots of public parks have hours. Most Knoxville parks are “dawn til dusk”. Those are normal operating hours, based on safety and crime prevention. They aren’t just closed forever, til the boss says so.

Interested to hear everyone’s take on this.
Facilities - aka improvements - such as cabins, restaurants, picnic areas, even camp sites - might be closed for public health and safety reasons. Raw land maybe if there is fire danger but not for Wuhan flu.
 

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Facilities - aka improvements - such as cabins, restaurants, picnic areas, even camp sites - might be closed for public health and safety reasons. Raw land maybe if there is fire danger but not for Wuhan flu.
How and why a beach or park is closed is up to the authority of that park or beach. The reason of Wuhan can be legit especially for employees who would have to be there. What they can’t do is shut it down for certain people and not for others. What they can’t do is shut gatherings on property not under their authority like a public sidewalk or someone’s private property al together. Fire and occupant codes do apply but those can’t be arbitrarily applied.
 

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UBER VOL !!!
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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
The inability (or unwillingness) of a lot of Governors and police to think in basic constitutional law terms has been amazing me for a couple of months now.

Simple things a first-year law student should immediately recognize: if people can shop at Walmart together, there is no constitutional way you can prevent them from going to church together or protesting the government together; if your order to stay home is based on spreading a disease, then it's unconstitutional as applied to activities that don't involve contact between people; if it's safe enough for liquor stores to be open, it's safe enough for other stores to be open; etc., etc.

Basically, government action on any fundamental right (i.e., first amendment, interstate travel, etc.) has to (1) further a "compelling governmental interest," and (2) be "narrowly tailored" to achieve that interest.

If it's safe enough for Walmart to be open, your governmental interest in closing churches fails #1. If Walmart is OK because of social distancing, your order fails #2.

If the order to stay home is based on a "compelling governmental interest" in keeping people separate to avoid spreading disease, then it's "unconstitutional as applied" when you arrest somebody who is doing something alone, outside. It fails #2, because keeping people apart doesn't require everybody to stay in their house.

Yes! Thanks for once again concisely stating what I’m trying to get at!

If “arbitrary and capricious” is the basis of a lawsuit, then there are easily more that 1,000,000 lawsuits just waiting to happen nationwide.

Has ANY state stopped selling lottery tickets and scratch offs? ITS THE MONEY! Let’s face it, lottery tickets, and particularly scratch offs are more frequently purchased by the lower end of the socioeconomic end of the ladder.

Those are the same people who smoke more, have lower nutrition diets, lack health insurance, and generally, don’t take very good care of themselves. They also don’t read news, and are generally uninformed. So here is a great idea: let’s allow the most likely victims and spreaders of the disease pass little pieces of paper back and forth with the convenience store clerks, who will then interact with hundreds of other customers hourly. Including hundreds of other dirty, filthy scratch off players.

But, we can’t go to Hobby Lobby to buy mask making supplies, and we can’t go to church.

Sound like the Land of the Free? I think not.
 

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In Kentucky that's the only thing that the Governor specifically can't do with his emergency powers.
Michigan also, amended in 2006 to explicitly prohibit confiscation off guns. Presumably due to LA response in Katrina.

I thought i read LA did the same afterwards also.

Randy


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The city I worked for closed some greenbelt space because they homeless trashed it. Of course we only cited people camping not walking, jogging, or otherwise using the area as appropriate. It flew in court because it was only specific areas for specific reasons and they were clearly marked at entrances.

A lot of the dumber social distancing arrests in California got thrown out. I suspect managers used to getting officers to jump when they say jump expect everyone to obey and it chafes them. Rather than stop and think about the goal vs numbers they react poorly.

The number one thing everyone from chief on down needs to ask for everything and answer is "Why are we doing this?"

If your answer is bull**** you need to rethink what you are doing.
 

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Unfair Facist
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The public has gotten a good look at the totalitarian nature of the left.

Hopefully it will motivate them to throw some of these tin pot Socialist dictators out of office next elections.
 
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