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Discussion Starter · #267 ·
Both the Uvalde officers that entered the school 2 minutes after the suspect, were grazed by gunfire through the classroom door.

It's real easy to say, they needed to take immediate action, as a strategic concept.

It's another thing to say how YOU would breach a door, while the suspect is shooting through that door.
Absolutely. The decision not to attempt to breech the door by the initial units could definitely be justified especially if they knew how strong that locked door was. And how do we know that they were facing a locked door? They probably tried the door.
 

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Discussion Starter · #269 ·
The context of all three of those means not in a position to continue to kill children.

YMMV.

I also notice a lack of policy about the urgency of providing EMS support to possible survivors which is where I am going with Priority of Life. Surprising since this was an issue at Orlando/Pulse.
That was the big lesson from Orlando. I was fortunate enough to speak with someone involved in that operation as well take the active shooter management training after it occurred. It’s the incident that got the EMS escort detail added to the basic planning and staging area deployment.
 

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Discussion Starter · #274 ·
Both the Uvalde officers that entered the school 2 minutes after the suspect, were grazed by gunfire through the classroom door.

It's real easy to say, they needed to take immediate action, as a strategic concept.

It's another thing to say how YOU would breach a door, while the suspect is shooting through that door.
But it would be their decision. Justified, maybe. People don’t realize that if they pressed forward and “ lost”, there would be no one there to stop him from attempting to go to the next classroom too.
Shooting back is also a tough choice not knowing if a kid is behind that door/wall. Also, the bad guy’s rounds could go thru the walls into the next classrooms.
But it was their decision.
I believe the attempt was made. That’s how they knew the door was locked.
 

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Discussion Starter · #290 ·
I keep hearing about locked doors…extreme times call for extreme measures. A couple rounds through the lock area wouldn’t defeat the lock?

All the rooms are corner fed, like standard school room construction, and usually the walls are made out of some solid construction material like block. At any rate, those doors shouldn’t have been much of an issue.
It works in the movies-lol.
In reality, it depends on the lock. It could make things worse. Especially with handgun rounds. A shotgun?That usually would work.

I think locked doors entries are going to be stressed more in the active shooter training in the future.
 

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Discussion Starter · #291 ·
I promise none of those kids are standing up straight in the room waiving for help.
You are working with hindsight. Could the officers see into the room after that door was locked?
Could these officers know if the gunman grabbed a kid and used them as a shield? Or even if the kids were behind/next to the gunman?
 

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Discussion Starter · #299 ·
I keep hearing about locked doors…extreme times call for extreme measures. A couple rounds through the lock area wouldn’t defeat the lock?

All the rooms are corner fed, like standard school room construction, and usually the walls are made out of some solid construction material like block. At any rate, those doors shouldn’t have been much of an issue.
It depends on the lock and the tools the officers had ( handguns, rifles, or shotguns). Some locks have a solid bolt that swings down rather than springs into the striker plate.A hand gun round is going to have a tough time with such a lock. Even a rifle would have issues with it. A shotgun with the right load would probably destroy the the door frame and lock around the bolt. Maybe even the door handle used to pull the door open, ( yes one can stick their hand in the hole to pull open the door). Using the key , quietly unlocking the lock and then use a rope on the handle to pull open the door for a dynamic entry makes chances of a successful entry higher. — the door pulls open rather than a good bum rush push in.
The school locks should be resistant to such shooting the locks tactics. The gunman isn’t stupid. They will try to shoot the locks to enter.
 

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Discussion Starter · #302 ·
Let’s just say, sure, CQB drill was obviously a part of this, but I’m not going to get deeper into the NFDD thing with you. There’s a lot you might not know that isn’t appropriate to discuss here.
Let’s stick to tactics that don’t require a SWAT team either like flash bangs.
The general consensus with active school shooters is now that we generally don’t have time for such teams to form up.
And as you rightfully have done, not to discuss fancier tactics on a public forum that a killer can counter.
SWAT has all sorts of “ breecher” tactics that were commonly used in Iraq. A lock on a door isn’t much of an issue if they have time to set up.
 

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Discussion Starter · #304 ·
No, I’m not. I’m stating a piece of common knowledge. None of the kids are in the room doing jumping jacks. I’m stating what’s been stated over the multiple pages: that this was a CF of epic proportions and after 23yrs of training and table topping on this subject it’s still a goat ****. I’ve actually had roles in modern active shooter training for the special people (LE). And I say “special” because apparently no one knows nothin except for LE…

The answer to this situation whether then or now (hindsight) is NOT “do nothing” which is exactly what was done

Thank you
It’s 20/20 hindsight knowing that kids weren’t huddled up by the killer by the door when the initial responding cops didn’t push forward right there and then.
And I am not saying anything about your training or experience. I have no idea of what you do.
An example of what I am talking about was the Pulse nightclub active shooter.
 

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Discussion Starter · #308 · (Edited)
How many carry them? Dunno but I suppose that answer will vary place to place. What realistic danger would a flash bang pose to the kids?

Whether they’re carried by regular guys or supervisors or not at all, or whether they’re trained to use a multi bang device and make entry on top of them is immaterial. It’s probably the best answer for the scenario.

How bout finding solutions instead of “do nothing”. Because once upon a time someone would’ve said “arrive on scene and move to contact?!? That’s ludicrous! What if this, that, etc”. And that’s exactly how it used to be, and how it changed or was supposed to have changed.

Either way, not my problem. But I do know how to handle the problem. It’s a CQB problem.
Regular patrol do not carry flash bangs at all nor trained on them. Heck, SWAT teams are getting flack for having them — remember the calls for the demilitarization of the police.
It’s the SWAT teams that have that stuff hence why they wait for them to come to use such tools and tactics that have the most chance of success.
And clearly, if we want to talk of experiences and how an LE or military experience on a room entry might help you understand the limitations of the flash bang. They have to open the door or window to get it into the room first. Second, a flash bang might give a startled response to pull the trigger on his weapon if his finger is already on it. The third reason I won’t discuss publicly

And there are other methods of dynamic entries we won’t discuss here that SWAT usually has available.
 

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Discussion Starter · #310 ·
There’s a lot of options other than what was actually done. Very true that knowing the door etc is useful to know which options are the better ones. The general doors we are speaking of, the locking mechanism can be defeated. Aside from blowing the door (not a likely option at all), defeating the door w/ firearms is an option as we mentioned but moving beyond that, you can manually defeat most of those locks w/ a couple simple hand tools or lock picks, and that can be done quietly. Need noise to cover the manipulations of the door? Sound the fire alarm. If cops had gone in earlier maybe they could have secured keys from the principal or custodial staff. I’m pretty sure the school has a Knox box on it also. I’m not willing to act or accept that a bunch of cops were simply confused by a standard school door.
Yes picking a lock is an option— can you pick a lock? I can’t with most locks. SWAT often have members who can. Heck, some of our ESU guys are elevator repair trained ( hostage in an elevator like in the movie Speed).
Everything you are mentioning are solutions for why SWAT was created.
 

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Discussion Starter · #313 ·
For sake of argument assume I have zero experience.

Now given that, I cannot find a single professional Active Shooter Training school that says they handled it correctly, can you cite one?

You see it is not about me, it is about all your fellow door kickers who said he phucked up.
Of course they didn’t. Look at the results. It’s where and why it went wrong. None of these schools have given much other than saying “ go in”. They don’t have all the information yet as to say how yet.
More is coming out why the initial units shooting it out with him couldn’t. The door was locked ( how did they know it was locked if they didn’t try it). The door opens out so they couldn’t kick it in.
Having Botac team wait was a mistake. They are a SWAT team. Not getting a key earlier was a mistake.
 

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Discussion Starter · #316 ·
No I am quoting professional "Been There, Done That Folks"

Tell me where Thor Eells is wrong:

Thor Eells, executive director of the National Tactical Officers Association (NTAO), said "If you're in a classroom with innocent victims and I know that shots have been fired, I need to engage you. Even if you stopped firing, I'm going to make entry into the room so we can begin to administer life-saving aid to any potential victims," Eells said.

Tell me were Director McCraw (20 years FBI/20 years DPS Director) is wrong?

Tell me where Paul Howe (20 years SOCOM) is wrong?

Tell me where Gilliam, Pike, ALERRT, O'Neill, and dozens of other door kickers or trainers are wrong?

Name ONE recognized expert who thinks it was handled correctly. Just One.
Yes and the question is how that entry is done.
The school “ chief “ decision not use the border patrol’s SWAT team was wrong. However, it might have been a proper call when and if he didnt have the resources to open the door. And what if a child was placed against that door.
Please note that the Border Patrol team that did go in waited not just because the “school chief” said no. They also waited for the key to the door.
 

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Discussion Starter · #321 ·
Aren't you the guy that wanted the SWAT team? Waiting for a SWAT team is contrary to "the process".

Everyone knowing, agreeing to, and being trained on "the process", is great.

But actually doing it is much harder.

"Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth." - Mike Tyson

My former department had to change it's use of force policies to allow active shooter protocols. Because active shooter protocols are so much more aggressive then prior tactics allowed.

We had admin staff that believed that shooting a suspect without giving verbal commands, to allow them to surrender was un-Constitutional behavior.

Not to mention, more than a few officers are hesitant, or just don't want to use force, especially deadly force.

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I think it's interesting all the talk about the officers should have gone in regardless of risk.

If that is the employer/public's expectation, all police officers should have life insurance, worker's comp, etc designed around that premise, provided by that same employer/public. Most do not.

I worked for a 500 officer department. One of my co-workers was run over by a suspect, and critically injured. When he wasn't able to return to return to work in 180 days, they tried to force him off worker's comp, and retire him. That would have seriously cut into what he was taking home. It took about a year, for him to return to work. He worked 5 more years. That allowed him to retire with the full benefits.

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Having or not having shields, "go bags", breaching equipment, available in every patrol car is also an issue. Saying "get in there", which is the right tactic, but not having a way to breach a steel door in a steel frame is an issue.

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Pulse Nightclub - was an active shooter that was confronted outside, but able to get inside and become a barricaded active shooter.

Columbine High - Shooters confronted by an SRO in the parking lot, but able to get inside and become barricaded active shooters.

Parkland High - Just a disaster.

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Saying you need to go in and confront an active shooter is easy. But actually doing it seems to be much harder.

It looks like a training and leadership issue.

Not to mention a public that seems to bristle at police officer with exterior load bearing vests, pants with cargo pockets, and long guns to name a few things

Then everyone acts surprised when the police officers that are trained to de-escalate, and avoid using force, don't go into battle mode when they encounter an active shooter.
Thank you. They can’t turn on a dime. Force Deesculation for everything then expect them to be aggressive in a second. It’s doesn’t work that way.
 

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Discussion Starter · #323 ·
No I asked if any members responded and if so why they did not enter or lead the charge since they should know school layout better than BORTAC.

We really need answers as to what happened in that hallway, I sure as hell hope it does not come down to interagency rivalry or some other bs.
The answer is easy. They are trained, encouraged their whole time to deesculate despite some training then people expect a different mind set. It doesn’t turn on a dime. It’s why as a supervisor you can’t just plug in any cop for any job even if they had training in it. It’s also mind set. Hard chargers do units like BorTac and those who aren’t do things like Schools. Even former SWAT/anti-crime/narcotics guys can lose their edge after doing such assignments like schools.Former school cops usually take some time to get the edge if they transfer into one of the hard charger units.
Over here, ask a criminal of which officers they are more afraid of, a uniform cop or the cop in plainclothes ( not a true undercover). The answer is the plainclothes cop because they are hungry and are hard chargers
 

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Discussion Starter · #324 ·
Fair enough. I am just saying I cannot find any expert who says stopping assault was right move. Even if shooting stopped, it is urgent to get into help injured.
No one here is saying stopping the assault was the right move. It’s just easier said than done. The initial cops stopped pushing forward…why? Was it a locked door they could not open? We dont know yet.
Even BorTac waited for the key before attempting an entry.
 

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Discussion Starter · #348 ·
Yes, I can pick locks.
Great. You stand in front of that door if by chance you were carrying your lock picking tools-lol How long would it take . Any good locksmith/safe cracker will tell anyone you never know how long a lock will take.
Have you picked that type of lock before? Maybe you could do it. But most patrol guys can’t pick locks
 

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Discussion Starter · #355 ·
well, you would stand off to the side, kneel actually, with minimal exposure. Again, with a couple simple hand tools I bet I could’ve jimmied the latch open. I’ve done it before, not under fire though. And lock picks? Smaller than a pack of cigarettes.

now my whole point is that there were multiple options and ways to gain entry. Instead of making excuses for the Royal cluster **** I identify solutions that weren’t used. I mean, I thought the whole goal is to “learn and do better”. My bad
You have a skill set that most officers don’t have then. Especially those officers who aren’t in SWAT.
Do you think the public in its anti-cop furor would except regular cops getting trained to pick locks? How often does it come up that you would pull them off patrol to teach it or take the time away from other training that is now required like deesculation, EEO, CPR, Defib, CAT-T, EPD , sensitivity training, the range, legal updates, procedures updates, etc etc.
This is why SWAT was created. So they could be pulled from patrol and get the type of training like lock pick and other entry techniques.
And you still don’t know if you could have picked that particular lock unless you know that model lock already.
 
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