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Discussion Starter · #171 ·
Looks like the BP guys decided to ignore Chief Arredondo and went in on their own.


Good for them, but what an absolute clusterfark.
He was a “ police chief” that only had to supervise 4 officers and one detective. That’s a chief. Sorry but I was never a chief and I supervised a lot more people than that. A lot more people.
Having said that, let’s see what all the evidence is before passing judgment. Too much misinformation has been pushed out there and they might be scapegoating him
 

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Discussion Starter · #182 ·
While I want to agree with the 'give the facts time to come out' I cannot think of a reason to not go in ASAP. This was never a hostage barricade, this was a barricaded active shooter. As long as he has access to additional victims and he is preventing you from obtaining medical treatment for those he shot then you still have active killing going on.
It depends on what was going on. It’s the hunting of additional victims part rather than those who are bleeding out that would say it was or wasn’t a barricaded hostage situation. For example, the Pulse nightclub shooting became a hostage situation. And victims bled out.
Did this “ chief” know that the kids that were still alive in that room only because they were hiding? Or did he believe the gunman was holding them?
When were the victims shot? In the beginning or was it during that 40 minutes of waiting?
Was the gunfire that killed those kids mistaken for gunfire at the cops and why?
More information is needed like that story of a cop shouting “ does anyone in there need help”, a little girl answered and got shot. Could that voice have been the gunman instead pretending to be a cop? It’s happened before. If it was the gunman, all the more reason to go in but it shows how the information we are given is tainted and still needs to be sorted out.

Was the “ chief” the initial coordinator, among the first to respond or did he come in later?
More info is needed. The true decision maker was those cops who engaged first and the decision not to press the attack
 

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Discussion Starter · #183 · (Edited)
Sometimes it is time to embrace the suck and just take the action knowing there's no up side to the situation. I've stared that situation in the face and did what was needed. I will do so again if needed. I would trade my life for a child's.
Just adding something to think about since they appear not to have had eyes on what was going on in the classroom.
You charge that fatal funnel and lose. What stops the gunman from moving to the next classroom?
How many rounds did you fire already? How many do you have left that point?
The gunman locked the door. How are you going to take that door? He may have been shooting through the door. Do you blindly return fire not knowing if he is using kids as human shields or not?
Too many questions right now. Hindsight is 20/20.
I am speaking of those cops outside those doors in the beginning who initially engaged the gunman before those quiet 911 calls from those kids came in.
 

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Discussion Starter · #195 ·
This situation should have been over in 30 minutes I am not talking about a 2-5 man response . As a general rule the boss has no business running a tactical crisis scene .


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Where I worked, a boss is the one who runs such a scene. A junior boss like a sergeant but it moves up as the bigger brass arrive. Not the tac teams themselves but rather the operation . Even the Alerrt active shooter training goes into the management of the scene for bosses from who is running the tac teams, staging area, EMT escorts etc.
Great training and war gaming
 

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Discussion Starter · #196 · (Edited)
In short, the rest of those 19 guys standing around with their thumbs in their ass.
Those 19 guys weren’t there yet when the true decision needed to be made, when the push forward needed to be done . Before the killer could set up.
The shots had alledgedly stopped. Again, what if the killer put human shields on the doors . Go look at the Pulse Nightclub response, both good and the bad. Rushing the door in that case would have gotten more people killed.
And how would you breach that locked door if was a security door. The real tac tram had to wait for a key.
I don’t know the set up of the school and the room. Was it exterior facing with windows? What kind of walls were there?
 

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Discussion Starter · #208 ·
The choice of having the chief of the 6 man school police department as your incident commander is an odd one. He's in charge of the smallest agency with the fewest resources. Other than he and his officers being more familiar with the specific layout of the school, they don't bring much to the table.

Ideally all of the local agencies would have gotten together beforehand and hammered all of this out with mutual aid agreements and MOUs. I suspect that they hadn't formally done that and incident command fell to Arredondo by default since it was his turf. He was clearly not the best choice.

I can't fault him for switching gears from active shooter to barricaded subject after the initial gunfire stopped. As was pointed out earlier, if the timeline is correct, there was a 37 minute gap without gunshots. So, okay, Ramos is a barricade and not an active shooter now. Got it.

But once BORTAC arrived Arredondo clearly should have deployed them to the hall to prepare for an assault if Ramos started shooting again. It is absolutely inexplicable to me why he didn't have them ready to go ASAP, even if there was some thought that they were going to try negotiations or something.

Typical admin weenie vaporlock is the only way I can figure it. Good thing that BORTAC decided to take matters into their own hands, but we're only able to say that because it worked out and only Ramos was killed in their assault. If one of the BORTAC guys had thrown a round that killed a hostage, the same people screeching about "How could the police just stand there while babies were dying?!" would be screeching twice as loudly about "Rogue Federal goons going in to play cowboy without authorization killing innocent Latinx babies!!" They'd be demanding that the BORTAC team be charged with Manslaughter for acting without lawful orders.

Arredondo's ineptitude exposed those guys to a lot of unnecessary liability. I'm glad they were willing to pick it up.
I agree with you on many levels on this except how and who becomes the incident commander, the tac commander etc. The idea of these incident commands is so someone can use the resources of the other departments. This crap goes back to the old NIMS training and protocols. But in reality, we know what happens. The school “ chief” took the leadership position and no one until the border patrol team showed up, challenged it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #213 ·
@SAR

The school would be within the borders of the town or at least the county, so the larger agencies should have concurrent jurisdiction if they choose to exercise it. At least that's how it works around here.

For purposes of critical incident command the decision between all of those agencies as to who was going to be in charge should have been worked out beforehand. I'm guessing that they weren't, which is how Arredondo ended up in charge by default.
Just remember the time frame. It’s under an hour. Its in the training. Someone step up and lead. Then worry about that NIMS stuff. He stepped up and the people there followed his lead. The title “ chief” probably deterred police sergeants and others from taking over.
And if you take the Alerrt training, you know the positions of IC, tac coordinator can change as it scales up and down.
And remember that Botach unit would be low on that totem poll in any such agreements and they said “ F that” and went in.
 

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Discussion Starter · #214 ·
Agency size is indeed a consideration, but in an apples to oranges sort of way. I’ve worked for a small agency, a medium sized agency, and a huge agency. I can’t even make comparisons between the different agencies, and had I not worked each of them, I would have zero clue as to the best way to manage my resources accordingly. The first agency I worked for was small. We pretty much had to work our own scenes, figure things out on our own, and in the rare instances we needed back up, they might be rolling from 30 miles or more away. Contrast that to my large agency where I have multiple air assets and a full time SWAT team at my beck and call. Huge difference. I was the incident commander at one event where I summoned the SWAT Team and had two air units circling overhead. I had over a hundred personnel on hand to secure a perimeter and to conduct multiple searches. I even had on duty detectives respond to start canvassing for witnesses… there is no way I would have ever had such a luxury on my small agency and if I had, I would have been 100% overwhelmed and unable to figure out how to manage such vast assets if I did have them. Now if I had started at my large agency and went to a smaller one, the opposite would be true… If I had a major incident I’d be reaching into my pockets for all of the resources I was accustomed to and come up empty…

So basically what I am getting at is that an incident commander is best in his element, but may not fare very well if he is taken out of it and handed a lot less resources or a lot more resources… If I were the Chief of a small agency, I doubt I would know where to begin to deploy Federal Tactical Teams and the multitude of assets pouring in. I’d probably get analysis paralysis.
That definitely could have happened especially if he doesn’t know the fed team’s capabilities.
It’s funny as a low level supervisor in my organization, I have called in ESU, Aviation , K-9, detectives ( including 1st grade detectives) at my beck and call until someone higher up decides to step in ( if they decide to step in). By the time those higher supervisors show up, the job is basically over. That “ pre- planned” areas of responsibility rarely get exercised because of the time factor other than that units speciality like Fire department, EMS, etc.
 

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Discussion Starter · #215 ·
Edit: Steve just beat me to it.

I’m a little surprised the School District Officers didn’t have their own emergency access keys, fobs, or codes. They certainly should have had them.
They probably do….to the schools they are assigned. No one seems was assigned to this school.
Housing and Transit cops know… keys are life. Even if it’s just the key to use the bathroom.
And another question is, is there a master key or are all the classroom locks individual keys. An SRO can’t carry that many keys for every class room for every school if that is the case
 

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Discussion Starter · #218 ·
I’d be interested to know the SRO chief’s experience, as well as the SROs for the school district. Any experience at a decent-sized PD or SO, perennial school officer, only worked small town with low crime, high speed big city? How much time did he spend as a patrol sergeant and lieutenant before becoming chief? What’s the biggest team he ever supervised?

And what kind of training did the SROs have? Up-to-date training or just the same old same old with low-speed stuff? Do they stay in house or send their guys to top-tier instructors?

It looks like he knew the department as a former cop there.
But frankly this is an issue of mind set. His department did have “ assertive and pro-active “ officers- does this mind set sound familiar- like Sheriff Iseraeli ‘s department in the Parkland shooting.
Uvalde CISD police leadership needs to go, Natsec expert says

Type of officers border patrol still has but the type that is being forced out by woke policies
 

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Discussion Starter · #223 ·
This is probably another one of those variables. There were six schools and the district admin building in the city my last agency covered. The officers had keys or accesss codes to each of them, including interior doors. I realize this isn’t practical everywhere, but a key should have been accessible sooner than it seems to have been. They were the School District Police Department, after all. We didn’t even have such a thing in my state except for the universities.
This could be like what happened on the titanic and the keys to the binoculars locker. The ship’s officer who had the key was transferred off the ship at the last minute and forgot to leave the key behind.
The officers were assigned to a different school for the day- the keys might have been left in their locker. Also, the keys might have been on one of the officers who was shot and then evacuated to the hospital ( I don’t know if that happened)
Like how when Reagan was shot, the nuclear code card was left in his jacket pocket, and his clothes were removed. They didn’t know where the launch code verification was for quite some time.
 

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Discussion Starter · #224 ·
Was it a full time on duty SWAT?

Because it looks like 12 officers from the picture on a part time team.

That means they had other full-time roles at the department.

Not to mention there are generally 3 shifts, and they get days off.

So 12 divided by 3 shifts, plus days off mean probably 2-3 might be on duty at any given time.

So the other 9-10 aren't on duty. So all of them would have to be called in from of duty. How long does it take you to get to work if your boss calls and says "get in here, NOW".

Having a SWAT team, and having a SWAT team IMMEDIATELY available are two very different things.

Plus, it seems like the Incident Commander delayed breaching the classroom, waiting for a tactical team. I think that SWAT team was who he was waiting for.

Waiting is the wrong call.
And is that SWAT team a multi agency one? Either way, it takes time for the team to form up as they are called to come in or from other parts of the county, then have to gear up, and plan.
The current active shooter protocol is go as you are. Aggressively .
They expect officers or a department to change their mindset on a dime. It doesn’t work that way. Hard chargers are what is needed. You can train up people to be that, but it doesn’t turn on a dime.
It’s time the LE community explain that to these woke policy makers
 

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Discussion Starter · #225 ·
Here is what they are saying now.


As I said, the real decision was made by those officers who didn’t press forward at the beginning. But that locked door was going to be an issue for them.
No one will see it in the cluttter of the critique of the cops, but those two unlocked doors is where all the difference could have been made.
 

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Discussion Starter · #227 ·
Locked doors? During an active shooter incident? No problem. During the UCLA Active shooter incident that I previously mentioned, only the Unicops had keys which led to our guys to breach locked doors, much to the consternation of the Unicops. This subsequently led to a flurry of calls to 911 that the active shooter was now tossing grenades, but I digress.

Again, reason number 365 that unless prior joint training or MOA exists, the local jurisdiction rules the roost.
It depends on the lock and what guys could do with a foot or a shoulder. I’m talking about those first guys, not some who might have a ram or another tool.
Local jurisdictions don’t always rule the roost especially when it’s some rinky dink village department or agency. Nassau county PD and Suffolk county PD don’t take a backseat to them. County or state police departments often won’t answer to the locals
In addition to NIMS, we had CIMS because of overlapping responsibilities between NYPD units like ESU , the fire department, corrections etc. Truff battles etc. It’s a whole section on our patrol guide that is more confusing then helpful
 

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Discussion Starter · #228 ·
More on the school “ chief” and the pushback on his decision
“But one cop who was on the scene told the Post that Arrendondo was wrongly blamed.
“It’s a lie that [Pete] Arrendondo told everyone to stand down,” said the officer, who didn’t want to be named. “It’s a lie. And we’re all getting death threats. It’s a f—g nightmare.”

 

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Discussion Starter · #237 ·
It all depends,, As an example, the City of Los Angeles surrounds on all sides, the cities of San Fernando, Santa Monica, Beverly Hills, and Culver City. Any Active Shooter scenario is on them, and they would absolutely rule the roost if we came in unless they voluntarily relinquished control to us. The City of San Fernando might, but Santa Monica and Beverly Hills? Not a chance in hell would they ever defer to LAPD.
I know what you mean but this is a school without enough officers to even conduct anything on their own at this point in the incident. Four officers, one detective, one chief in the whole department.
We used to have more turf battles before Transit and Housing merged with “ big blue”. In fact, when Bratton, the head of the NYC transit police told Ray Kelly, my cops can carry Glocks instead of revolvers. Kelly said “ no you can’t”. Bratton responded “ yes, I can.I run my own department “. Transit got Glocks but Ray Kelly kicked transit out of the NYPD academy where all three of us would train together. [ it’s Glock talk- I had to add that story in]
Turf battles happened between departments in other things as well as precincts, and between individual cops as to who’s arrest it is.
 

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Discussion Starter · #248 ·
Since you mentioned it I have my own story. Not long after Bratton came to LA, he transitioned the Department to Glocks from Beretta 92F’s. One evening I was sent to go pick up Bratton at his home and transport him to the hospital where a wounded officer was being treated. During our ride, we exchanged small talk. I thanked him for allowing Glocks and told him I had recently transitioned myself. Without missing a beat he replied, “Don’t thank me.. I couldn’t hit the broad side of a barn with a Beretta.” So that in a nutshell is how LAPD ushered in Glocks.
Bratton was cool like that. An old transit guy told me how he and the boys were drinking beers in the parking lot after work one night. Bratton shows up. They think they are screwed. Bratton just says to them, make sure you guys just keep the noise down and went on his way.
 

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Discussion Starter · #250 ·
Thank you Captain Obvious for telling us they needed immediate response. If only you could go back in time and tell that to Pete Arredendo.


SWAT team does not have to be "activated, geared up, briefed, deployed". Members show up just like everyone else and do what needs to be done. The different is they should be more familiar with layout and have better training than some others. They literally trained for this 2 months ago.
Stand by on that report about their active shooter training. We don’t know if it was real training or just some lectures yet.
 

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Discussion Starter · #251 ·
Seems to me like a single person failed majorly. Almost every other responder was excellent.
It depends on when this “ chief” arrived and made the decision. It’s really those cops in that hallway who made the first decision not to press forward. I would love to hear Alerrt’s assessment when all the info is available
 

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Discussion Starter · #266 ·
If that is true, those doors wouldn't breach easy. Barring heavy breaching tools, those aren't opening up, especially under fire.

Which brings us back to why didn't the school police have keys, or FD keys from the knox box.

It brings me back to why weren't they working on using the classroom windows to end this.
Someone should have been working windows if they had them . And were they big enough to enter thru. At a minimum, shoot the gunman through them if possible
 
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